Can someone give me some examples of Brian's guitar work with the Stones? I'm never really quite sure on the Stones early stuff whether it's Keith or
Brian. Maybe I need to buy a cd copy of "Got Live,..." or, is the screaming on that recording prohibative of the guitar parts? I'd love to know more, thanks.

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

I Wanna Be Your Man - I Cant Be Satisfied - No Expectations...Brian slidin' all the way!

ROCKMAN

Maybe I will open path to tons of critics, but never mind.

Despite the well-known, splendid bottle-neck parts Jones gave to the band, I think his rhythmic trade mark was a bit pale for the Stones.

Listen to the first Stones LPs, when Keith plays the leads in a Chuck Berry style. Jones is often uninspired, sticking on the beat without groove. He is never "off beat" or "up", which is bit weird for a Stones' rhythmic.

For instance, the BJ (*) rhythmic guitar on "It's not easy" (Aftermath") sounds to me a bit bored because he sticks too much on the first and third beat, ie playing straight and like a metronome. Of course, when playing such track you cannot omit first and third beat, but there are many ways to play it a little less, or with a little delay, or advance, etc... in order to give the groove.

Think for example to some rhythmic work done after Jones's area, for instance Little Queenie on Get Yer Ya's Out or Stones classic IORR. The rhythmic guitar "sculpts" the beat with palate, and taste, because "it takes its time" with the beat, ie playing not-too-straight on the beat.

Think also to Keith when introduced to the Faces last show (well, the one with tropical plants) – When he jumps on the song which has yet started for a while, he "re-sculpts" the groove, the Faces switching at once to reshape the song as Keith feels it.

Nothing like that with Brian's guitar.

(*) Hope it is BJ... Anyway, if it's Keith, it would not change my opinion.

In my opinion, Jones is a terribly gifted musician, but a very mediocre guitar player. He didn't see himself as a guitarist, he liked to see himself as a bluesharp player. Aside from some nice slide parts (easy to play, but hard to invent) I can't recall any Jones guitar contribution that's worth noting. His contribution to the Stones and 60's music in general is his flamboyant bad-boy pretty hair rockstar image.

Mathijs

Well keith and brain invented the ancient world of weaving, and think about the time when they recorded, there where no 500 plus tracks or something.

His contribution on Rock 'n Roll Circus is embarrassing!
Is his guitar switched on? No Expectations is good, but the rest....I can't hear him....not sure if this was done on purpose - perhaps it was because Brian was so out of it..?

One of the few songs that Brian plays the main riff is on The Last Time. He plays the "choppy" sounding riffs on several songs, including Off The Hook, It's Alright, It's All Over Now as well as the slide on Little Red Rooster.

Rock n roll circus: Brian played but its Keith you hear. So what youre saying is that Keith was embarrising. BUt Brian was probably not doing his best right there. But who knows? Someone wrote that he did play good on the bootleg.

Its BRIANS RIFF on the last time. Tell me that is only mediocre..jeez...

JR

Brian was depressed & wasted at R & R Circus - early on - say the debut - he was terrific, - other highlights just off the top of my head, "It's All Over Now" & the chess sessions generally, the slide on "I'm Moving On,' 'Empty Heart,' 'Grown Up Wrong," etc - by Aftermath he was already losing interest in guitar, but on Buttons/Flowers/Satanic he made up for it with his contributions on other instruments (I esp. dig the theremin on 'Please Go Home' Mona psychedelicized), & the weird addition of mellotron on 'Stray Cat' (B is odd & effective too.

I recall reading an Ian Stewart interview in which he said that, before Brian started pursuing the blues, he played Django Reinhardt stuff. Is there any sign of this in Brian's playing with the Stones?

As for finding Brian's parts, try the discography at www.timeisonourside.com. While probably not 100% accurate, it is useful.

Is that Brian doing the end riffs on Its all over now? chilling.

How about the solos on Walkin the Dog? BJ or KR?

'Don’t forget, if you’re on your bike, wear white'

hi,
keith is on lead guitar.. but brian does some singing....back up!

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its BRIANS RIFF on the last time. Tell me that is
> only mediocre..jeez...
>
> JR
>
> Home of the worlds greatest Stones records!

A brilliant riff written by Keith for sure, but technically very easy to play. In all means BJ is a mediocre player. But that's not important: Jim Morrison is not famous for his abillity to reach 4 octaves either.

Mathijs

Does anyone know if it was Brian adding the subtle (so subtle I didn't even notice it until recently) sitar touches on Streetfighting Man?

Yes thats Brian on sitar and its Brian who wrote the riff for Paint it Black, the melody that is.

I agree that Brians guitar playing, aside from his slide playing, had no real distinction to it. Keith went thru stages as a guitar player (amping up Berry's Style, then to more Riff & chord centered songs (Breakdown, Cloud, etc) and then finding his true trademark sound - G tune with some nasty Berry based leads and licks. Brian never really had time to develop a distinctive guitar sound. On some of those early records Brian and Keiths playing was truly tight and interlocked. Would have loved to hear them just playing what they liked, like a fly on the wall.

It's no secret that Brian screwed around with many instruments (Woody is the same way from what I have read...drums, piano, sax, pedal steel) but started out as a sax or clarinet player I believe, something with a reed. The sad fact is that Keith was pretty much handling all the guitar parts from Aftermath on. Brian broke his hand and it never healed correctly, to the point that he could barely play guitar...so he played what he could. His contributions before and after guitar very good..Flute on Tuesday, His Work On Thumb, Dandelion, Love You, Expectations, Autoharp. Forgive me if I forgot a few. A very talented person

Keith credits Bill with finding the right melody for Paint It Black by playing it on an organ.
I do not believe that there is sitar on Street Fighting Man. The high pitch heard at the end is some type of horn from the mid-east, cant remember what its called or who played it. Also Used on JJF.

Milo, NYC
I got to get away

The sitar by Jones can be heard quite good on especialy the instrumental breaks. The high pitched instrument is the shehani, played by Dave Mason.

Mathijs

BJ plays chords on the sitar on SFM but I read that he did the melody for Paint it black? Could be Bill of course and Brian doing it on sitar.

Brian did the melody on Paint it Black, but Bill did the Polka-like rythm on the bass pedals of the organ.

Mathijs

Brian contributions on the official albums is maybe a bit slim. If you listen to the outtakes of the early years you can hear him play a lot more!
I love the Chess sessions, The BBC recordings '63/'65 and the Black Box.

He plays some great guitar on I can't be Satisfied, Down in the Bottom and Reelin' and Rockin'. But most of all i really love his harp playing on High Heel Sneakers, Look what you have done, And Mr. Spector and Mr. Pitney came to (i love that song) and No Monkey Bussines (is this the good title?).

Some of the best stuff they recorded in the early years never ended up on the albums. You fill up a great album with tracks they recorded in those years. But then again the same goes for the years after that, look at Tattoo You.

Cheers,
Wuudy

stone-relics: "Its BRIANS RIFF on the last time"

Mathijs: "A brilliant riff written by Keith for sure"

Here seems to be a controversy.. Does anyone have any factual evidence to support these claims?

I really don't know the answer. For years I THOUGHT that it's Keith's riff, like a signature Stones riff. But then, few years ago, I HEARD that is actually invented and played by Brian.

Mathijs said that it is very simple to play. Yes it is, but still I have never heard anyone been able to repeat that hypnotic effect of the original cut.

- Doxa

Rorty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stone-relics: "Its BRIANS RIFF on the last time"
>
> Mathijs: "A brilliant riff written by Keith for
> sure"
>
> Here seems to be a controversy.. Does anyone have
> any factual evidence to support these claims?

Well, it's a Jagger/Richards song. If Brian would have invented the main riff, it would have been a Jones/Jagger/Richards song. In various interviews (wyman, Richards) they said it's Brian playing the lead riff on this Jager/Richards penned song. I have never read that Brian also invented the riff.

Mathijs

"If Brian would have invented the main riff, it would have been a Jones/Jagger/Richards song"

So why "Jumping Jack Flash" is not a Wyman/Jagger/Richards song?

I suppose the instrumental ideas, even so fundamental ones as the main riffs of TLT or JJF, around those times didn't have any impact on credition; the credits went only ones who invented the basic singing melody/chords and lyrics, I suppose. There are also lots of songs around that time with distinctive instrumental riffs, licks or themas that don't get any recognition. (in fact, albums from Aftermath to Their Satanic Majesties are full of Brian's instrumental contributions to form the songs).

Also another thing that seems relevant here: Brian was said to be upset and finally frustrated about not getting any credits for his musical ideas (the worst was "Ruby Tuesday"). Like Taylor later.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-01-19 17:42 by Rorty.

All sources I've seen say Brian sitar, (Bill organ) on PIB...& on Mother's Little Helper too, giving it that edge of menace...I don't think Bill ever recorded any sitar parts. The early Keith/Brian guitar attack, as G. Marcus wrote about the debut, "...cool and ruthless...classic r & b stripped of all doubt, the demand for pure aggression and excitement sweeping everything from its path..." Humility would creep in a bit later. "I Wanna Be Your Man' - Brian's solo on my vinyl 45 (a bit subdued on the 2002 cd) recalls nothing so much as James Williamson's apocalyptic solo on the Stooges' "Search & Destroy" a decade later, for sheer impact. If anything Clapton (who split the Yardbirds when they recorded 'For Your Love' in '65) was at that time a 'blues purist' more than Brian, who certainly wanted stardom, or Keith - the music they made (aside from obvious popsong attempts like 'Tell Me') sounds in no way'compromised'. Tho since the 70s the RS have been frequently accused of 'selling out' their 60s ideals, they didnt really have any - they were more interested in quality aesthetics & escaping bourgeois constraints of their youth, which requires money. BTW, in addition to what others have mentioned, Brian also played (on Buttons/Flowers) organ, marimbas (Yesterday's Papers, Out of Time, Ride On Baby), Piano (Ruby), Accordion (Backstreet) just to mention a few - & piano/trombone/sax/clarinet on 'Something Happened To Me Yesterday"

Rorty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If Brian would have invented the main riff, it
> would have been a Jones/Jagger/Richards song"
>
> So why "Jumping Jack Flash" is not a
> Wyman/Jagger/Richards song?

Wel, mainly becaus I truly do't believe Wyman. and yes, if you come up with a riff as important as on The Last Time you shou;d receive the credits. As far as know, all Stones have repeatedly said that Brian's first and most important clash with Jagger/Richards was that they could write songs, and Jones couldn't. Until date, there is not ONE knwn Jones song, apart from the instumental bit of the Rice Crispy jingle.

By the way, on Mothers Little Helper it is not a sitar but a 12-string electric played with a slide.

Mathijs

M, thanks for the clarification

In regards to The Last Time, I know it was Brian playing the main riff. If you watch the 25x5 video, they show the Stones playing the song and you can see Brian playing the main riff. However, I don't know if he came up with the riff. I kind of think that it was probably Keith's, but he probably let Brian play it.