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TravelinMan
Also, you should listen to Bare Wires, the album that got Taylor the gig in the first place. He’s all over that record playing rhythm, lead, slide, even wah wah (much like Potted Shrimp which makes me think it is him and not Stills).

Just to make sure, we are talking about Loving Cup, right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-21 09:12 by DandelionPowderman.

loving cup, great song, belongs on exile, which is full of great songs.

wished they had played it live more, its up there with the best stones songs.

Like a lot of people I found Exile rather inaccessible at first but Loving Cup (along with Tumbling Dice and Sweet Virginia) kept me coming back. Jagger deeply mines the magnificence of language on this song like on no other track and his vocal performance here tops that of (the somewhat overrated IMO) Let It Loose. (My only small quibble would be with the ‘loving cup’ metaphor – I’m fine with it now but in my younger years I struggled with its meaning. I understood that it was metaphor but the way he desperately insists for a drink I felt he wouldn’t say no to an actual cup of something either. Or maybe it was a sexual reference – like drinking champagne from a woman’s brassiere – that I was too young to catch.)

Anyways, I don’t know if Exile is the best Stones record (although it probably is) but Side 2 of Exile is the best side of any Stones record, that much I’m sure most will agree.

Love this song.Can't get it loud enough when i'm drunk as a skunk.

I was in my teens listening to it in the early and even late 70ies.
Loving Cup had a so important message for me:
Even my idol the big Mick Jagger, the womanizer-god esp. in those times, has his
story with not getting himself startet while having sex with a women.

Loving Cup is @#$%& magic!

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His Majesty
Let it Bleed as an album is half great and half crap, including the raw 1969 Loving Cup would most definitely have improved it.

I would say half great and the other half great!

"No Anchovies, Please"

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan
Also, you should listen to Bare Wires, the album that got Taylor the gig in the first place. He’s all over that record playing rhythm, lead, slide, even wah wah (much like Potted Shrimp which makes me think it is him and not Stills).

Just to make sure, we are talking about Loving Cup, right?

Yep, check out the shows in Vancouver, Seattle, and San Francisco when they played "Loving Cup". In Vancouver you can only hear Taylor's electric guitar, but in Seattle you can hear Richards playing acoustic guitar and Taylor playing the EXACT electric guitar part on Exile On Main Street.

This goes to show that Taylor contributed to more songs than peeps on this site give him credit for. Also, it shows he can play reserved in the studio, who knows maybe Keef reeled him in a bit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-21 18:31 by TravelinMan.

Bare Wires is a masterpiece and I listen to it all the time. Regarding Taylor he played on 3 great records in a row with Mayall, Crusade, Bare Wires and Blues from Laurel Canyon and then played on LIB,SF,Exile,GHS,IORR and YA Ya's that's 9 great records by the time he was only 25 years of age he played on.

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan
Also, you should listen to Bare Wires, the album that got Taylor the gig in the first place. He’s all over that record playing rhythm, lead, slide, even wah wah (much like Potted Shrimp which makes me think it is him and not Stills).

Just to make sure, we are talking about Loving Cup, right?

Yep, check out the shows in Vancouver, Seattle, and San Francisco when they played "Loving Cup". In Vancouver you can only hear Taylor's electric guitar, but in Seattle you can hear Richards playing acoustic guitar and Taylor playing the EXACT electric guitar part on Exile On Main Street.

This goes to show that Taylor contributed to more songs than peeps on this site give him credit for. Also, it shows he can play reserved in the studio, who knows maybe Keef reeled him in a bit.

It doesn't show anything other than that he played a somewhat (not totally) similar part in concert.

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OpenG
Bare Wires is a masterpiece and I listen to it all the time. Regarding Taylor he played on 3 great records in a row with Mayall, Crusade, Bare Wires and Blues from Laurel Canyon and then played on LIB,SF,Exile,GHS,IORR and YA Ya's that's 9 great records by the time he was only 25 years of age he played on.

All excellent stuff, but he didn't play on this track

Talk: Loving Cup new
Posted by: DandelionPowderman ()
Date: August 21, 2019 21:10

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OpenG
Bare Wires is a masterpiece and I listen to it all the time. Regarding Taylor he played on 3 great records in a row with Mayall, Crusade, Bare Wires and Blues from Laurel Canyon and then played on LIB,SF,Exile,GHS,IORR and YA Ya's that's 9 great records by the time he was only 25 years of age he played on.

All excellent stuff, but he didn't play on this track

Yes I know I was referring to Bare Wires the entire record - I hate when the record name is also a song on the album.

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan
Also, you should listen to Bare Wires, the album that got Taylor the gig in the first place. He’s all over that record playing rhythm, lead, slide, even wah wah (much like Potted Shrimp which makes me think it is him and not Stills).

Just to make sure, we are talking about Loving Cup, right?

Yep, check out the shows in Vancouver, Seattle, and San Francisco when they played "Loving Cup". In Vancouver you can only hear Taylor's electric guitar, but in Seattle you can hear Richards playing acoustic guitar and Taylor playing the EXACT electric guitar part on Exile On Main Street.

This goes to show that Taylor contributed to more songs than peeps on this site give him credit for. Also, it shows he can play reserved in the studio, who knows maybe Keef reeled him in a bit.

It doesn't show anything other than that he played a somewhat (not totally) similar part in concert.

Hahahahahahahahaha

These guys will do anything to diminish Taylor's contribution. It is literally the Exile version played live (Richards-acoustic, Taylor-electric), and Taylor plays EXACTLY what is on the record (sure he threw one extra lick in there), yet somehow he didn't record it in the studio? Why the hell would he learn Richards exact part to play live? When has that EVER happened?


Take your blinders off, man. You and Mathijs can be wrong, and are absolutely wrong in this case. I admit, I was wrong about who played what before like on Short And Curlies.

What it comes down to is Richards was so good at rhythm that people think Taylor couldn't have possibly played a rhythm guitar part, and also Taylor was so good at lead/slide that people think Richards could never have played a lead/slide part.

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OpenG
Talk: Loving Cup new
Posted by: DandelionPowderman ()
Date: August 21, 2019 21:10

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OpenG
Bare Wires is a masterpiece and I listen to it all the time. Regarding Taylor he played on 3 great records in a row with Mayall, Crusade, Bare Wires and Blues from Laurel Canyon and then played on LIB,SF,Exile,GHS,IORR and YA Ya's that's 9 great records by the time he was only 25 years of age he played on.

All excellent stuff, but he didn't play on this track

Yes I know I was referring to Bare Wires the entire record - I hate when the record name is also a song on the album.

Taylor plays on Bare Wires, the record and the song ("Bare Wires Suite").

He also plays on EVERY studio version of "Loving Cup" despite people trying to write him out of history, even in the face of irrefutable evidence.

I am a Taylorist, too.

Incredible player.

[www.youtube.com]

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan
Also, you should listen to Bare Wires, the album that got Taylor the gig in the first place. He’s all over that record playing rhythm, lead, slide, even wah wah (much like Potted Shrimp which makes me think it is him and not Stills).

Just to make sure, we are talking about Loving Cup, right?

Yep, check out the shows in Vancouver, Seattle, and San Francisco when they played "Loving Cup". In Vancouver you can only hear Taylor's electric guitar, but in Seattle you can hear Richards playing acoustic guitar and Taylor playing the EXACT electric guitar part on Exile On Main Street.

This goes to show that Taylor contributed to more songs than peeps on this site give him credit for. Also, it shows he can play reserved in the studio, who knows maybe Keef reeled him in a bit.

It doesn't show anything other than that he played a somewhat (not totally) similar part in concert.

Hahahahahahahahaha

These guys will do anything to diminish Taylor's contribution. It is literally the Exile version played live (Richards-acoustic, Taylor-electric), and Taylor plays EXACTLY what is on the record (sure he threw one extra lick in there), yet somehow he didn't record it in the studio? Why the hell would he learn Richards exact part to play live? When has that EVER happened?


Take your blinders off, man. You and Mathijs can be wrong, and are absolutely wrong in this case. I admit, I was wrong about who played what before like on Short And Curlies.

What it comes down to is Richards was so good at rhythm that people think Taylor couldn't have possibly played a rhythm guitar part, and also Taylor was so good at lead/slide that people think Richards could never have played a lead/slide part.

Taylor could easily have have played the electric on the studio version, but it would never have sounded as "clumsily". The I-IV-stuff is one thing. What you obviously are missing is those short licks in there which aren't very audible. If you are convinced that Taylor played those, I can't do anything other than letting you believe that. It would be the same as believing Taylor played the solo on Happy on Exile, though.

The electric guitar doing the single string runs and the I - IV lick on the Exile version is 100% Keith, not a single hair of doubt. On the 1969 version Keith is doing the country bends, Taylor does the slashing chords and tremolo picking. Live in 1972 I don’t know, I need to listen. I wasn’t even aware there is an acoustic live.

Concerning Potted Shrimp: the wah guitar basically is note for note and soundwise a copy of Stills lead work on the Manassas songs The Love Gangster and The Treasure. And we know Stills was around for many jam sessions from 1969 until he fell out with Keith on the 1972 tour.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-21 23:39 by Mathijs.

Don't they sing about a 'little drink from your furry cup' on the 'drunken version' (on Exile deluxe)? - just so we are clear about the metaphor.

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His Majesty
Let it Bleed as an album is half great and half crap,

Now that you bring it up.It lacks a second guitarist here and there, not necessarily Mick Taylor. Keith gave it all he got, vey good, but not enough diversity. Too gloomy/limited for an entire album like that, imo. Half crap? No.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-22 01:51 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Mathijs
The electric guitar doing the single string runs and the I - IV lick on the Exile version is 100% Keith, not a single hair of doubt. On the 1969 version Keith is doing the country bends, Taylor does the slashing chords and tremolo picking. Live in 1972 I don’t know, I need to listen. I wasn’t even aware there is an acoustic live.

Concerning Potted Shrimp: the wah guitar basically is note for note and soundwise a copy of Stills lead work on the Manassas songs The Love Gangster and The Treasure. And we know Stills was around for many jam sessions from 1969 until he fell out with Keith on the 1972 tour. Mathijs

Do we know why Keith and Stills had a falling out in 1972? Was it over drugs?

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Mathijs
The electric guitar doing the single string runs and the I - IV lick on the Exile version is 100% Keith, not a single hair of doubt. On the 1969 version Keith is doing the country bends, Taylor does the slashing chords and tremolo picking. Live in 1972 I don’t know, I need to listen. I wasn’t even aware there is an acoustic live.

Concerning Potted Shrimp: the wah guitar basically is note for note and soundwise a copy of Stills lead work on the Manassas songs The Love Gangster and The Treasure. And we know Stills was around for many jam sessions from 1969 until he fell out with Keith on the 1972 tour.

Mathijs

Check out the 1972 version in Seattle. You can hear Richards’ acoustic guitar on that one, especially the first show. The other shows he’s drown out by the rest of the band.

As far as Exile goes, the part isn’t textbook Richards to me. The low register licks sound like Taylor throwing them in while he’s playing. This could have been an early take and that’s why it isn’t overly polished.

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TornAndFried

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Mathijs
The electric guitar doing the single string runs and the I - IV lick on the Exile version is 100% Keith, not a single hair of doubt. On the 1969 version Keith is doing the country bends, Taylor does the slashing chords and tremolo picking. Live in 1972 I don’t know, I need to listen. I wasn’t even aware there is an acoustic live.

Concerning Potted Shrimp: the wah guitar basically is note for note and soundwise a copy of Stills lead work on the Manassas songs The Love Gangster and The Treasure. And we know Stills was around for many jam sessions from 1969 until he fell out with Keith on the 1972 tour. Mathijs

Do we know why Keith and Stills had a falling out in 1972? Was it over drugs?

Here's what Ronnie wrote in his book:

Every time I think about Stephen Stills, I can't forget that Keith couldn't stand him and there was nothing Stephen could do to change that.
We were sharing a studio once at Atlantic Records in New York, and Stephen wanted to play one of Keith's guitars.
But Keith said no and actually locked all his guitars away to keep Stephen from playing them.
Then Keith put a sign up on the door that read "No Stephen Stills Allowed".
I'm not sure Keith knows why he didn't like Stephen, but he used to say, "Stills doesn't know how to do drugs properly."
An odd reason, especially as I don't think any of us knew whether Stills did drugs at all!

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TornAndFried

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Mathijs
The electric guitar doing the single string runs and the I - IV lick on the Exile version is 100% Keith, not a single hair of doubt. On the 1969 version Keith is doing the country bends, Taylor does the slashing chords and tremolo picking. Live in 1972 I don’t know, I need to listen. I wasn’t even aware there is an acoustic live.

Concerning Potted Shrimp: the wah guitar basically is note for note and soundwise a copy of Stills lead work on the Manassas songs The Love Gangster and The Treasure. And we know Stills was around for many jam sessions from 1969 until he fell out with Keith on the 1972 tour. Mathijs

Do we know why Keith and Stills had a falling out in 1972? Was it over drugs?

Here's what Ronnie wrote in his book:

Every time I think about Stephen Stills, I can't forget that Keith couldn't stand him and there was nothing Stephen could do to change that.
We were sharing a studio once at Atlantic Records in New York, and Stephen wanted to play one of Keith's guitars.
But Keith said no and actually locked all his guitars away to keep Stephen from playing them.
Then Keith put a sign up on the door that read "No Stephen Stills Allowed".
I'm not sure Keith knows why he didn't like Stephen, but he used to say, "Stills doesn't know how to do drugs properly."
An odd reason, especially as I don't think any of us knew whether Stills did drugs at all!

Story was that Stills was really trying hard to get into the Stones camp, and trying hard to get close to Mick and Keith and pushing himself into jam sessions and overdub sessions. There was also huge amounts of drugs involved.

I understand there were two fall outs. One in early 1972 during the overdub sessions for Exile at Sunset where apparently Taylor was not present during most of the sessions due to excessive coke use, and Stills tried to push himself into the sessions. He was at a certain moment denied entrance to the studio. Second falling out was on the 1972 tour, where stills got to close to comfort to Keith and Keith drew a knife.

Mathijs

So I've listened to it all. Funny I never noticed they did these versions with a acoustic guitar live. But to me the live versions only proof more that it's only Richards on the studio version. The rythm guitar, including the little lead lines at the end of the bridge, are very simple but highly effective, and have that typical Richard's 'squareness' to it. It's not smooth, it's straight, heavy handed.

On the live versions Taylor proves why he didn't play the studio version: he does copy Richards' very simple patern on the G chord, but he adds a buttload of fills, tremelo picking, solo's, double stops and what more to it. In SF2 he starts with some fills he playes the country inspired licks like on the 1969 version (after 'street summer sun' and 'aint got none' for example), but during the 'fall down drunk part' he can't hold himself any longer and starts noodling. During 'beautiful buzz' he does these double stops.

On Seattle first he plays much more like the 1969 version, but now adding these tremelo picked chords and little runs leading in the chords, like underneath 'brings you roses' and 'fish and fight, and the runs underneath 'just one drink' and underneath the middle -8. Then he adds the double stops underneath 'buzz' and 'fall down drunk'.

On Seattle 2 Taylor's playing is much more constricted for the first half (sound problems, adjusting amp?) until the middle 8, where he plays these counter, tremelo picked chords, and then he picks it up again with the double stops and noodling.

Taylor's rhythm timing is much more 'on the 1' as well, whereas Richards tends to push and pull the timing much more, giving the track a loser feeling.

For me quite clear why they dropped it though: it's a mess, with the acoustic guitar feeding back and dissapearing into nowhere, Taylor's noodling instead of holding it down, and Jagger sounding quite lost between the piano and horns.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-22 11:00 by Mathijs.

<The rythm guitar, including the little lead lines at the end of the bridge, are very simple but highly effective, and have that typical Richard's 'squareness' to it. It's not smooth, it's straight, heavy handed>

Exactly. We can add that the tone is different, it's got less sustain and vibrato than if Taylor should have played it.

You mentioned that it could have been a first take, TravelinMan, and hence sounding "less polished" than the usual Taylor-take.

Well, it's a long way from these simple, sustainless lines to the only "ragged" Tailor-take I know of: Dance Little Sister

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DandelionPowderman


Well, it's a long way from these simple, sustainless lines to the only "ragged" Tailor-take I know of: Dance Little Sister

You still need considerable technique to be able to play the lead of DLS though...

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman


Well, it's a long way from these simple, sustainless lines to the only "ragged" Tailor-take I know of: Dance Little Sister

You still need considerable technique to be able to play the lead of DLS though...

Mathijs

Absolutely. But it still stands as Taylor's sole "dirty" track with The Stones, imo.

"Loving Cup" is one of the Great Stones tracks. They got it all right. The lyrics are gorgeous, the acoustic guitar and piano runs are perfection. Jagger is singing in his best days. The almost Spanish horns in the bridge. The buried Steel drums.
Honestly the electric guitar runs I always assumed were Taylor, but I will go with Mathijs' assessment.
What I like about the arrangement is that they eventually dropped doing the bridge twice. It is also a testament about the power of a good mix: the end section can be heard in the same take but in differing mixes. And the section comes off completely different.

I also was not aware of the acoustic live version. It is too bad; probably technological reasons also contributed. But those ear;y 72 setlists would have been so interesting if the obscure tracks had been developed.

Re Majesty's statement about "Let it Bleed". I agree. IMO LIB is the weakest of the Big 5. It really needed the second guitarist.

I don’t think the argument stands for the following reasons:

DP mentions the solo to Happy. Well Taylor didn’t play on Happy as we know, but he did NOT copy Richards part, not even remotely. He didn’t copy Richards part on Torn And Frayed, nor did he copy his part on Tumbling Dice or any other Exile song. Why Loving Cup? I can’t think of an instance in his whole time in the band where he played a Keith Richards part so closely live.

Mathijs makes interesting points, but he’s definitely overblowing the “noodling”. To me it’s more comparable to Dead Flowers where he had a part on the record and then expanded on it live. This seems much more possible considering they were writing songs in a marathon. Taylor probably laid down his part in a few takes without opportunity to expand on it. It’s quite a basic song from a guitar standpoint.

A side question, contrary to what’s been written here I’ve read that Taylor was present at most if not all the LA sessions, but are we sure the basic tracks of this Loving Cup doesn’t date back to the Sticky Fingers sessions?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-22 15:11 by TravelinMan.