Just got my copy of the sampler from 1979 ABKCO sampler LP
(field cover, 2nd pressing, but rare enough:-)

Why are All Down The Line, Sweet Virginia,
Loving Cup and Shine A Light on it?
I always thought that ABKCO only had rights for Sugar
and Horses. Any insights?

ABKCO owns the rights of everything the group started recording before July 30 1970.
An early 'Shine a Light' was started with Leon Russell far before this deadline.
According to Stanley booth 'Loving Cup' was firstly recorded at Muscle Shoals Studios, in 1969.
'All Down the Line' and 'Sweet Virginia' must have been recorded in 1968 and 1969, respectively, as first takes.
If you have a look at the copyrights of your originals of 'Exile on Main St.', you
can see that ABKCO hold the rights of these songs, in 1972.
As years passed, Promotone has bought these rights back and recent re-issues of 'Exile on Main St.' often report them as under Promotone control.
I'm sorry, but I can't give you exact dates of the hembryionic recordings of these two latter songs.
I'm sure that thare are more competent members on this forum, for this kind of info.
Bye, Luca

ABKCO held the publishing rights to these songs since they were 'written' or creatively conceived during the time of the Stones' legal involvement with ABKCO's management.
However, since the final versions of these songs were not published until after the Stones and Klein parted ways, the performance (the ownership of the actual recorded versions as heard on record) rights of these songs
belong to the Stones.

Records like the one mentioned by the original poster were often circulated within the industry as a method of offering for sale or consideration the songs themsleves
to other artists to perform, which would generate music publishing royalties for ABKCO.

Thank you Beer & Luca. I always find this kind of minutae instructive.

Interesting discussion.

Any insights from thkbeercan regarding the relationship these days between Abkco and the Stones?

And how about each others rights using songs before and after 1971?

Thank you very much!

I don't think that any particular agreement has been set.
Sometimes, they work together (40 Licks and Grrr!), sometimes they don't.
The old settlement stated that'Metamorphosis' was to be the last record of inedit music issued by ABKCO. therefore, I dare to say that they can't publish any studio
inedit without Promotone's permission.
Luca

Quote
1963luca0
I don't think that any particular agreement has been set.
Sometimes, they work together (40 Licks and Grrr!), sometimes they don't.
The old settlement stated that'Metamorphosis' was to be the last record of inedit music issued by ABKCO. therefore, I dare to say that they can't publish any studio
inedit without Promotone's permission.
Luca

That would certainly explain the dearth of vault releases from ABKCO through the years. You'd think Promotone would have eased up for the 50th anniversary release, particularly as they are all under the Universal umbrella now.

Quote
Blueranger
Interesting discussion.

Any insights from thkbeercan regarding the relationship these days between Abkco and the Stones?

And how about each others rights using songs before and after 1971?

A lot of what I might say in response to your question is conjecture. Some is based on experience. I worked for Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab for 20 years and was involved with the company when they released their 11 disc boxed LP set as well as Sticky Fingers and Some Girls. The boxed set was licensed from ABKCO, the other 2 LP's licensed from the Stones via Rupert Lowenstein.

The Stones original contract with Klein gave Klein (not the Stones) the publishing rights and performance rights to the material they wrote and/or recorded during the term of their affiliation with Klein. Bear in mind that performance rights doesn't refer to performing the songs on stage, but rather committing the performance of the written lyrics and music to a recorded form (ie, a phonograph record, tape, CD, etc.). Thus, although ABKCO owns the publishing rights to the song "Satisfaction", they only own the performance rights to the version that was released in 1965 and the live version on "Got LIVE If You Want It". Performance rights for any recorded version done by the Stones after 1971 belongs to the Stones, with the publishing rights still controlled by ABKCO. It is a bit confusing at first, but the entire music industry conforms to these concepts. The concept of publishing rights goes back to the days when sheet music was the most popular form of musical sales, and the phonograph had yet to be invented. Performance rights are, in contrast, a more recent legal creation. Also, the terms of copyright (length of time before it becomes public domain) for both publishing and performance rights are different AND vary from country to country, but that is another story.....

When the Stones split from Klein, their older released material (their recorded body of work) was securely in Klein's hands, and it was argued, so was the publishing for those songs which had been 'written' during those years. So, ABKCO owns the publishing for songs like "Blood Red Wine", which has never been officially released. If the Stones were to re-record and release that song today, they would own the performance rights, but ABKCO would still control the publishing rights and get a publishing royalty each time the song appeared in a sale-able form (LP, CD, mp3, etc).

Some songs which appeared on "Exile On Main Street" were conceived/written as far back as 1969, so, it was argued, the publishing rights for these tracks belonged to ABKCO.

The final split between the Stones and ABKCO stipulated the following:

1) the performance rights for "Brown Sugar" and "Wild Horses" would be jointly owned/controlled by both the Stones and ABKCO. (That's why these songs are always part of ABKCO greatest hits/singles packages)

2) the Stones were prohibited from re-recording and releasing versions of the songs they had recorded under Klein's management for a period of 5 years after the split. (That's why there was no 1972 tour LP. Since motion pictures were not part of the "5 year" agreement, the "Ladies & Gentlemen" film was legally possible.)

3) ABKCO had the right to repackage a hits collection for a special TV marketing campaign. (The Stones had always disallowed stuff like this while under contract to Klein/Decca. It hardly matters now, but in the 1970's such packages were a big deal.)

4) ABKCO was given the right to release one more LP of 'new, unreleased' Stones material. (This became "Metamorphosis")

5) ABKCO was given the right to release "The Rock And Roll Circus". (Klein had put up the money for this anyway.)

6) ABKCO was not allowed to tamper with or change the albums already released.
(Thus, additional tracks could not be added to existing albums. "Honky Tonk Women" could not be added to "Let It Bleed", etc.).

Now....

When "40 Licks" was conceived, Klein was still alive. Since there was quite a bit of $$$ to be made on a "first-time ever" comprehensive Stones hits package, both sides decided to 'bury the hatchet" and agree to a joint venture. Just to make sure everyone was on the same page and to insure there was NO confusion, one CD was all ABKCO material, the other all post Klein material. In fact, one CD of the 2 disc set was identified as being distributed by Universal (I think) and the other by whomever was distributing the Stones at the time!!! Just prior to this, the Stones had allowed ABKCO to include "Bitch" (the flip side to "Brown Sugar") and "Sway" (the flip side to "Wild Horses") to be included in their "Singles 1968-1971" boxed set, lending an air of authenticity to the release.

Allen Klein died shortly after this release. Since then, a plethora of material has seen the light of day, all of which required co-operation between ABKCO and the Stones:
-The TAMI Show DVD,
-The Ed Sullivan Shows DVD,
-The expanded Ya-Ya's set with both additional music and unreleased film footage,
-Boxed sets of Stones LP's for both ABKCO material and Rolling Stones Records material (both curiously bearing the Stones' trademarked tongue logo!!)
-Tracks from the Klein years showing up on the Deluxe Exile 2nd disc (Loving Cup, I'm Not Signifying, Aladdin Story)
-the upcoming release of "Charlie Is My Darling"
-the upcoming greatest hits packages variations

Could Allen Klein's death have anything to do with the apparent loosening of relations between the two camps? Who among us can say?

Will there be a flood of unreleased material from the pre 1971 days?
Unfortunately, I doubt it. The Stones in those years spent more time on the road than they did in the studio. Whatever quality leftovers that existed from various studio sessions were used on later albums or flip sides of singles. What remains are loose jams, rehearsals, rejected/incomplete takes and radio/TV/concert recordings-most all of which are available on bootlegs. Perhaps a package of unreleased Chess studio material, the IBC tracks, some stereo mixes could be cobbled together. Perhaps a BBC package. But again, 99% of this stuff is already out there as bootlegs, some of them very high quality.

Post 1971 is another matter, since the Stones alone control everything and, presumably, were carefully safeguarding and cataloging their every move. But none of these later recordings, with the exception of a deluxe "Sticky Fingers", possibly, would need ABKCO involvement.

In the end, we have to ask ourselves just one question...Who are the Rolling Stones?

Are they dynamic, fan-oriented, entrepreneurs who will stop at nothing to feed the hungry ears of their devoted following?

Or are they a bunch of lazy, lay-about loafers, who take forever to make a decision and, even then, make some pretty bad ones?

Road manager Sam Cutler called them "the greatest rock and roll band in the world".

Bill Wyman called them "the littlest rock and roll band in the world"

Original member/pianist/roadie Ian Stewart called them "3 chord wonders" and "my little sacks of shit"

Critic Lester Bangs once called them "the smelliest farts of them all"

Only you can decide. Just don't make a career of it. Because, as we all know...
It's only rock n roll!