I think accusing Keith of homophobia is a new low. (And I'd suggest not judging one era by the linguistic standards of another.)

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stonehearted
Booze.

During Keith's heavy, hard-drinking, post-heroin days, roughly from 1981 to 2010, Keith was notorious, especially in the 1990s and beyond, for keeping journalists waiting for hours on end while he would be "priming" himself for interviews by sitting in an adjacent room chain smoking and guzzling glasses of his favorite "nuclear waste" concoction.

Being an audience for Keith in an interview situation must have been like listening to a drunk propping up the bar at last call, all full of colorful stories, bravado, and occasional obnoxiousness.

Keith was never known for publicly putting down other artists and performers before that period of his life when his personality became well oiled by the disinhibiting effects of hard liquor, occasionally making him the baby boomer equivalent to Johnny Rotten.

I don't doubt that this happened, but how much of this is your personal interpretation of what you think may have happened?

This thread was starting to depress me (except for Max's TV highlights) until this line made me laugh-out-loud. Dandy, all I can say is...duh.

For the record, I tend to agree that this was the probable scenerio back then, but does anyone seriously care about this whole Elton-Keith thing anymore?

Reading all this old nasty stuff is a kinda painful and sad...it's so nice to see that Keith seems to be in a healthy place now.

Quote
2120Wolf
Is everyone here unemployed ???? Who really F@#%$^& Cares ?????

Some of us here are self-employed and work at the computer, which affords us the luxury of logging on to IORR and working simultaneously and staying logged on all day and all night if we wish.

Quote
stonehearted

Quote
2120Wolf
Is everyone here unemployed ???? Who really F@#%$^& Cares ?????

Some of us here are self-employed and work at the computer, which affords us the luxury of logging on to IORR and working simultaneously and staying logged on all day and all night if we wish.

And the moral of the story is; Be careful what you wish for.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stonehearted
Booze.

During Keith's heavy, hard-drinking, post-heroin days, roughly from 1981 to 2010, Keith was notorious, especially in the 1990s and beyond, for keeping journalists waiting for hours on end while he would be "priming" himself for interviews by sitting in an adjacent room chain smoking and guzzling glasses of his favorite "nuclear waste" concoction.

Being an audience for Keith in an interview situation must have been like listening to a drunk propping up the bar at last call, all full of colorful stories, bravado, and occasional obnoxiousness.

Keith was never known for publicly putting down other artists and performers before that period of his life when his personality became well oiled by the disinhibiting effects of hard liquor, occasionally making him the baby boomer equivalent to Johnny Rotten.

I don't doubt that this happened, but how much of this is your personal interpretation of what you think may have happened?

All of it, because obviously I don't know the man and was not there to witness firsthand any of his behavior.

But consider this. The real Keith Richards was always soft-spoken in the early days and low key with his public profile. But the often publicly drunk middle-aged version of Keith became a different animal entirely, cocky and posturing like that rambunctious drunk at the bar, which is certainly not the Keith we see in evidence in, say, 1973 being interviewed in that Australian tour documentary, where he speaks quietly and reverently about his favorite artists and looks down when he speaks--a hallmark of shyness. These days, the blustering Keith will go cozy up to a female interviewer and put his arm around her, standing within kissing distance as if completely disinhibited by drink. As he was asked by a female interviewer at the Berlin premiere of Shine A Light, "Keith, are you camera shy at all?" Keith, adjusting his shades, answers, "By now, baby, are you kiddin' me? [long drawn out nicotine-stained laughter] Huh-huh-huh-huuuuh!"

There again, just my interpretation, runnin' away with me.... and as you can see, work is slow at the moment--in fact I've given myself the day off, which leaves plenty of time to have typed these thoughts.

Quote
Gazza

Quote
Send It To me
I like Elton's personality, I think he's great. I Keith's defense, though, that princess diana song was whopping piece of saccharine crap.

...the lyrics of which Elton didnt even write (either version), which rendered Keith's comment somewhat redundant.

Yeah but...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-01 03:55 by GasLightStreet.

Quote
nonfilter
As I recall, it was reported at the time that Elton left the funeral early to start work on getting the single released. Great friend to the Princess. Then it went on to be the number one selling single of all time. It looked quite greedy. Keith's comments, when taken in context, were in response to Elton's disrespect and greed in this situation, and the fact that he couldn't even write a new song. How much hell would The Stones catch on this board if one of the new tunes from the Paris sessions turned out to be "Brown Sugar '12"? I have no use for Elton. I saw an interview with him talking about seeing Elvis in one of his later concerts and commenting how fat and embarrassing Elvis appeared. I don't know if Elton has any mirrors in his house, but he's not really in any position to criticize Elvis's or Keith's physical appearance.

That is hilarious!

This Elton-Keith spat is hilarious. Keith does have that nasty sense of humor tinged with mild anti-gay attitude. How about Keith's calling Mick Brenda? A contrast to Mick who is likely to be socializing with gays and involved in the gay-friendly fashion scene.

Quote
triceratops
This Elton-Keith spat is hilarious

Yes! I don't know that Keith has an anti-gay attitude (he may, not sure), but he doesn't mind slinging slurs. Same w/Elton, they're just bitching it out. Good stuff.

How many songs was he on at Ft. Collins? HTW is always mentioned, but there's a photo of that gig of them playing ADTL and there he is, standing on the side. I don't think that gig had anything to do with it.

Quote
Aquamarine
I think accusing Keith of homophobia is a new low. (And I'd suggest not judging one era by the linguistic standards of another.)

I dunno . . . Is it even a "low" at all? How can it even be an accusation as opposed to a confirmation with lines like "Mick was into disco at the time which as far as I was concerned was just a bunch of faggots in boxer shorts" in Life? Or his constant use of "poofter" and "poofs" in the same book? Or, as another correctly mentioned a few posts above, how about him calling Mick Brenda? You suggested we not "judge one era by the linguistic standards of another"--pish posh! What a cop-out! LINGUISTIC STANDARDS?!?! Those words are, were and have always been homophobic. Keith *is* homophobic. Do I love his songwriting? Yes. Is he definitely a bit homophobic? YES.

Quote
triceratops
This Elton-Keith spat is hilarious. Keith does have that nasty sense of humor tinged with mild anti-gay attitude. How about Keith's calling Mick Brenda? A contrast to Mick who is likely to be socializing with gays and involved in the gay-friendly fashion scene.

Brenda is how the UK satirical magazine Punch used to [I think it's defunct now] refer to the Queen. (Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth became Phil and Brenda.) Keith is referring to what he perceives to be Mick's regal behavior. And I've seen him talk a number of times about his own antipathy to anti-gay behavior and attitudes, though I can't come up with links right now, I'm afraid. He's involved in that fashion scene too, what with his wife and daughters being models. (Even going back to the 60s, one of his closest friends was Robert Fraser, who went to jail following the Redlands bust, was gay, and was one of the earliest victims of AIDS.)


Oh, and what I meant by linguistic standards is that certain words sound MUCH more loaded to us now than they did at the time, and at the time were often simply used as descriptors. I can remember people using the n word without intending any insult at all, simply as a way to distinguish one group of people from another.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-01 10:26 by Aquamarine.

Brenda and Phil come from the still flourishing magazine private eye !

Keith says Brenda came from a book he saw in a book shop with an author Brenda Jagger ( in that reliable source LIFE )

Sorry, I meant Private Eye. Good to hear it's still flourishing! (I think the implications of giving anyone that nickname are pretty clear, anyway. And as you suggest, Life isn't to be relied on 100%. )

Quote
Aquamarine
I think accusing Keith of homophobia is a new low. (And I'd suggest not judging one era by the linguistic standards of another.)

I'm not accusing him of anything

I wonder which descriptive words which many of us use commonly today, and are considered (by most of society and board moderators) OK/fine to say/use in public today, but in 10 years uttering these same words will make us look like the worst type of people?

Quote
Aquamarine

Quote
triceratops
This Elton-Keith spat is hilarious. Keith does have that nasty sense of humor tinged with mild anti-gay attitude. How about Keith's calling Mick Brenda? A contrast to Mick who is likely to be socializing with gays and involved in the gay-friendly fashion scene.

Brenda is how the UK satirical magazine Punch used to [I think it's defunct now] refer to the Queen. (Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth became Phil and Brenda.) Keith is referring to what he perceives to be Mick's regal behavior. And I've seen him talk a number of times about his own antipathy to anti-gay behavior and attitudes, though I can't come up with links right now, I'm afraid. He's involved in that fashion scene too, what with his wife and daughters being models. (Even going back to the 60s, one of his closest friends was Robert Fraser, who went to jail following the Redlands bust, was gay, and was one of the earliest victims of AIDS.)


Oh, and what I meant by linguistic standards is that certain words sound MUCH more loaded to us now than they did at the time, and at the time were often simply used as descriptors. I can remember people using the n word without intending any insult at all, simply as a way to distinguish one group of people from another.

I have a hard time believing that if the "people" aren't black. Do you think those "people" would have said the n word to that group's face ? I don't see it; calling a group of black people niggers in their presence and, every is cool???
Mops

Oh no let's not get into Keith's use of the word "Spade"..

Quote
stonehearted

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stonehearted
Booze.

During Keith's heavy, hard-drinking, post-heroin days, roughly from 1981 to 2010, Keith was notorious, especially in the 1990s and beyond, for keeping journalists waiting for hours on end while he would be "priming" himself for interviews by sitting in an adjacent room chain smoking and guzzling glasses of his favorite "nuclear waste" concoction.

Being an audience for Keith in an interview situation must have been like listening to a drunk propping up the bar at last call, all full of colorful stories, bravado, and occasional obnoxiousness.

Keith was never known for publicly putting down other artists and performers before that period of his life when his personality became well oiled by the disinhibiting effects of hard liquor, occasionally making him the baby boomer equivalent to Johnny Rotten.

I don't doubt that this happened, but how much of this is your personal interpretation of what you think may have happened?

All of it, because obviously I don't know the man and was not there to witness firsthand any of his behavior.

But consider this. The real Keith Richards was always soft-spoken in the early days and low key with his public profile. But the often publicly drunk middle-aged version of Keith became a different animal entirely, cocky and posturing like that rambunctious drunk at the bar, which is certainly not the Keith we see in evidence in, say, 1973 being interviewed in that Australian tour documentary, where he speaks quietly and reverently about his favorite artists and looks down when he speaks--a hallmark of shyness. These days, the blustering Keith will go cozy up to a female interviewer and put his arm around her, standing within kissing distance as if completely disinhibited by drink. As he was asked by a female interviewer at the Berlin premiere of Shine A Light, "Keith, are you camera shy at all?" Keith, adjusting his shades, answers, "By now, baby, are you kiddin' me? [long drawn out nicotine-stained laughter] Huh-huh-huh-huuuuh!"

There again, just my interpretation, runnin' away with me.... and as you can see, work is slow at the moment--in fact I've given myself the day off, which leaves plenty of time to have typed these thoughts.

BTW, Keith dissed the Band, Creedence and some other groups in the 60s already...

Keith is a stranger to political correctness (though I bet he knows exactly what the knee-jerk shock value of all those "sexist, racist and homophobic" words is, and uses them anyway. He enjoys being shocking.). He grew up, like I did, when many of those words were thought of as simply descriptive by most people. Probably the people so described found them offensive, but their voices were not heard as clearly back then.

However. That was then. Times have moved on linguistically, but Keith for whatever reason hasn't moved with them. Whether his don't care attitude proves actual racism, sexism or homophobia is a different question and needs to be judged on actions, not careless talk.

I think Keith has no concern for political correctness full stop. He's hung out with black guys since the 60's he won;t consider them to be any different from him and uses the lingo that black guys use between each other. I actually think he likes to consider himself black - black music and culture is where he has always been more comfortable.

I don't think the same argument will stick with the gay scene and Keith on this is probably still stuck in working class London 1950's style and I doubt he will change. Having said that he must have been in and around the gay scene in both New York and London.

Sexism, I've heard him say on more than one occasion that he considers women to be the stronger sex, I reckon this comes from his mum who had to run the house when Bert buggered off. He has 3 daughters, so I reckon they will put him in his place on any sexist comments. But, the blues and rock and roll was built on sexism and that;s where Keith learnt his trade!

Quote
crumbling_mice

Quote
odean73

Quote
crumbling_mice
Earliest incident between Keith and Elt was on the TOTA's. ELton bullied Jagger into letting him do one number, eventually Jagger agreed to it being Honky TOnk Women - the opener! Keith freaked out about it. Then to add insult to injury, Elton refused to leave the stage and stayed on playing...Keith was in melt down with fury...I think this is where it all stemmed from.

Is there any recordings of this concert, DVd or video?

Not sure...I read of the incident in the Tony Jasper 'Rolling Stones on TOur' book...my copy has long since disintegrated and is hard to flick through but as I recall there is a telephone transcript of the Jagger/Elt conversation where Elton begs Jagger to let him do just one song. Can't recall if this is a genuine transcript or not. THere were photos of Elt on stage and Keith (ELton dressed in Cowboy outfit I think) and a very funny quote from Keith which is something along the lines of, 'I've worked with animals and children, but I draw the line at Elton!'

edited to say..it may have been Terry SOuthern and Annie Leibowitz who compiled the book. It's basically a large photo book with text which covered the TOTA's. Excellent if you can get hold of a copy, but quite expensive now.

Thanks for that. Will have to check the book out.

Keith is a stranger to political correctness ......

Correct and Mick too back when he said "Eff 'em if they can't take a joke" in reply to Jesse Jackson (and others) who took offense to Some Girls with lines such as "and Black girls want to get F'ed all night"

These days Stones will not play "Under My Thumb". They would be pilloried

Quote
triceratops
Keith is a stranger to political correctness ......

Correct and Mick too back when he said "Eff 'em if they can't take a joke" in reply to Jesse Jackson (and others) who took offense to Some Girls with lines such as "and Black girls want to get F'ed all night"

These days Stones will not play "Under My Thumb". They would be pilloried

I'm not sure they'd be too keen to play Stray Cat Blues these days either...what with the current fashion in the UK of trying to nail celebs from the 60s and 70s who may have had sexual relations with under 16's!

Quote
rollmops

Quote
Aquamarine

Quote
triceratops
This Elton-Keith spat is hilarious. Keith does have that nasty sense of humor tinged with mild anti-gay attitude. How about Keith's calling Mick Brenda? A contrast to Mick who is likely to be socializing with gays and involved in the gay-friendly fashion scene.

Brenda is how the UK satirical magazine Punch used to [I think it's defunct now] refer to the Queen. (Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth became Phil and Brenda.) Keith is referring to what he perceives to be Mick's regal behavior. And I've seen him talk a number of times about his own antipathy to anti-gay behavior and attitudes, though I can't come up with links right now, I'm afraid. He's involved in that fashion scene too, what with his wife and daughters being models. (Even going back to the 60s, one of his closest friends was Robert Fraser, who went to jail following the Redlands bust, was gay, and was one of the earliest victims of AIDS.)


Oh, and what I meant by linguistic standards is that certain words sound MUCH more loaded to us now than they did at the time, and at the time were often simply used as descriptors. I can remember people using the n word without intending any insult at all, simply as a way to distinguish one group of people from another.

I have a hard time believing that if the "people" aren't black. Do you think those "people" would have said the n word to that group's face ? I don't see it; calling a group of black people niggers in their presence and, every is cool???
Mops

May be hard to believe, but's still true. I have no idea what they'd have said if speaking directly to the other group. (This was in the UK.) But let me give you another example--our school uniform was a color called (if your mother was sewing yours for you and wanted to get the right shade of cloth from the store) n----- brown. That's how it was labeled in an early set of paints I had, too. There was no insult to anybody intended, it was just considered to be descriptive. How black people felt about it, I have no idea--today we do care about that, and have become more sensitive to such words.

Guy Gibson the famous Dam Buster had a dog called Nigger.. Portrayed with no sense of its unsuitability in the famous movie about the daredevil raid on the Ruhr. That's the era Keith is from.

Hey, Aquamarine, my school uniform was that colour too! Seems incredible now, but in the UK in the 60s it was common currency.

Please DO NOT wake up old threads. Please let them sleep.

Bjornulf