Ok let’s see if this can be settled: Who started The Stones? I’ve always maintained it was Brian, but Brian wrote that letter in which he said the Stones is Brian and Stu from one band, and Mick and Keith from another band that formed the nucleus of the Stones. With that in mind, I hear some people say that the whole Brian starting the Stones is an internet myth.

I’m still not convinced it wasn’t Brian though. He was the one who instigated the whole thing by placing the ad in the paper.

Or am I wrong?

JumpingKentFlash

Article pbubished in the Jazz News magazine on July 11, 1962, one day before their very first gig.

Brian placed the ad. Stu, Keith and Mick showed up. It wasn’t until Bill and Charlie were added that they gelled as the band we know. It was an evolution, and wouldn’t have been the same band without all. (IMHO)

McKinley Morganfield



ROCKMAN

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child-of-the-moon


Article pbubished in the Jazz News magazine on July 11, 1962, one day before their very first gig.

So is that supposed to be taken as some authoritative evidence? That's as yesterdays papers as it gets. When you look at visionaries and instigators you're bound to overlook Stu who practically made it happen.

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Rockman
McKinley Morganfield

jimmy reed

What has it to be one person? Lots of kids were playing and interacting with each other, and these five ones happened to stick together.

Charles Edward Anderson Berry

God, probably.

chester arthur burnett

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Green Lady
God, probably.

but i hear they had more sympathy for the devil

so that makes me wonder....

Brian Hopkins Jones

Well, whoever started it, the nougaty centre is what we still have 60 years later.

It's been published in various places for centuries and will always be the mythical (Rollin' Stone Blues is not what it's called and Rollin' Stone is not the first track) origin of the farthing that involves the guy painting the ceiling of Chess:

Keith Richards: Coming up with the name Rolling Stones

Brian came up with the name (Rolling Stones). It was a phone call - which cost money - and we were down to pennies... We got a gig at last, so we said, "Call up Jazz News, put in an advert". So Brian gaily dials away - and they say Who? We hadn't got a name and every second was costing a precious farthing. There's a Muddy Waters record face down - The Best of Muddy Waters - and the first song was Rollin' Stone Blues. Brian had a panicked look on his face - he said I don't know... the Rolling Stones. That's the reason we're called the Rolling Stones.... Our first gig was... at the Marquee.

[www.timeisonourside.com]

In a handwritten letter by Brian Jones to an early fan, dated May 4, 1963, Jones himself says this about it:

"The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.” - Brian Jones, 1963.

Here’s the letter:

Brian Jones 1963

Perhaps the more immediate question is, Who Will Finish The Stones?



Or will they continue on and on as a touring avatar show?

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loog droog
Perhaps the more immediate question is, Who Will Finish The Stones?

I think the question is rather: what will finish the Rolling Stones?

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slewan

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loog droog
Perhaps the more immediate question is, Who Will Finish The Stones?

I think the question is rather: what will finish the Rolling Stones?

People that complained about no fireworks

The Rolling Stones started in a bigger bang.

Hey JKF, are you by chance MHP on the Hoffman forum site? Same question popped up there a couple weeks ago, or, you saw it there and posted it here?

I think it was the amalgamation of Brian/Stu and Mick/Keith. Brian named the band, booked their club shows and originally handled the money. When the rest of the band found out he was keeping an extra 5 pounds for himself that was probably the start of his decline! As Keith once said, "Brian peaked when we were the hottest band in London."

It is true that there was a fusion of two fractions, Brian and Stu + The Dartford Gang (The Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys: Mick, Keith, Dick Taylor) that would eventually become The Rolling Stones.

The question is who the engine was behind this fusion. From my limited understanding and knowledge, this is approximately what happened:

* 17th of October 1961: Mick and Keith meet again at Dartford Rail Station.

* November 1961: Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys record at Jagger’s home in Dartford.

*7th of April 1962: Mick and Keith see Brian Jones for the very first time, performing with Alexis Korner at The Ealing Jazz Club. This is a crucial moment: They talk after the gig. Who knows what was said? Mick probably gives an AFGA cassette tape of the November recordings to Brian, who then gives it to Alexis Korner. This leads to the next point:

*1st of May 1962: DISC writes that Alexis Korner’s Blues Incorporated will play a gig with Mick Jagger on vocals. The band consists of Dave Stevens, Dick Heckstall-Smith, Jack Bruce, Alexis Korner, and Cyril Davies. Brian Jones is in the audience, watching Mick Jagger perform as a vocalist. Mick and Brian will later perform together with Alexis Korner at Ealing Jazz Club.

* May 1962: Charlie Watts joins Alexis Korner’s Blues Incorporated. Mick and Charlie perform togehter with Korner's band.

* May 1962: Brian Jones and Ian Stewart holds auditions for a band they want to start, first at The White Bear, then at the Bricklayer’s Arms – both in Soho. Among the musicians they play with are Geoff Bradford, Andy Wren, Brian Knight, and Dick Hattrell. In late May, Mick, Keith, and Dick Taylor show up. This now become the core of the group: Brian and Stu + Mick, Keith and Dick.

* 1st of July 1962: Alexis Korner cancels his own show at the Marquee Club on the 12th because he’s invited to BBC Radio. Alexis Korner asks Brian Jones if he can form a replacement group. Mick calls DISC from a red phone booth to inform about this new band. According to legend, Brian Jones points to a track on a Muddy Waters record – “Rollin’ Stone Blues” while Mick is on the phone.

*2nd of July 1962: Brian writes a letter to DISC:

“Dear Sirs, I understand Mick Jagger, our singer, has phoned you with regard to our Rhythm and Blues group, the “Rollin’ Stones”. We are playing the marquee, Oxford Street on 12th July, sharing the bill with Long John Baldry’s Band. Our line up is:

Brian Jones – Guitar, Leader.
Keith Richards – Guitar.
Dick Taylor – Bass Guitar.
Ian Stewart – Piano.
Earl Phillips – Drums.
With Mick Jagger – vocals.

Yours faithfully,
Brian Jones.”

(Note: Earl Phillips is a joke, of course. At this point they didn’t have a drummer.)

* 7th of July 1962: DISC writes that Alexis Korner’s gig at the Marquee on 12th of July is cancelled and will be replaced by “Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones”.

* 12th of July 1962: The Rolling Stones play their first gig with Brian, Mick, Stu, Keith + Dick Taylor on bass and probably Tony Chapman on drums.

It can be a bit difficult to settle the score once and for all, but Brian was connected with Alexis Korner more than the others - and that first gig on the Marquee happened only because Korner gave the gig to Brian. Then we can argue who came up with the name, Brian or Mick, but the auditions Brian organzied at Bricklayer's Arms were essential to the creation of the band. DISC mentioned Mick a lot because he made the crucial phone call. I also think Mick got a bit of attention simply because he was the singer, hence the bill "Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones". My educated guess is that the band and the name were both Brian's creations. And then of course Korner plays a vital role: his Tuesday evenings at Ealing Jazz Club brought Brian, Mick, Keith and Charlie togheter.

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deeeskannnie
In a handwritten letter by Brian Jones to an early fan, dated May 4, 1963, Jones himself says this about it:

"The band is really an amalgamation of two bands. The one being an R & B band I formed about a year ago, and the other being a group run by Mick and Keith in S.E. London. I was introduced to Keith and we decided to pool our resources, so with Stu from my band, and Mick from Keith’s we became the nucleus of the “Stones.” - Brian Jones, 1963.

Here’s the letter:

Brian Jones 1963

I think deeeskannnie this is a acurate observation - Brian was there first.This I base also on my own research and during the extensive interviews conducted for my book Stu (indeed along with Stu's own diary entries - published in Stu). Interviews from the time and subsequently support this view.

That said, I believe that the heavy lifting though to bring the two camps together was mainly driven by Stu. Rhoda Massey who worked with Ian at ICI in 1962 was illuminating on just how his access to a telephone in the office (& a wage) enabled him to get the band not only together but to be booked as well as Stu living with Glyn Johns was key in them being able to get into the studio. I would stress though this is my personal opinion made on the balance of the not inconsiderable amount of material available/owned or administers by me.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022-06-27 22:30 by willnash.

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DGA35
Hey JKF, are you by chance MHP on the Hoffman forum site? Same question popped up there a couple weeks ago, or, you saw it there and posted it here?

I think it was the amalgamation of Brian/Stu and Mick/Keith. Brian named the band, booked their club shows and originally handled the money. When the rest of the band found out he was keeping an extra 5 pounds for himself that was probably the start of his decline! As Keith once said, "Brian peaked when we were the hottest band in London."

No. I’m not. But judging from the initials, the MHP guy is my brother. I’m actually asking out of a discussion I had with him.

JumpingKentFlash

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The Worst.
It is true that there was a fusion of two fractions, Brian and Stu + The Dartford Gang (The Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys: Mick, Keith, Dick Taylor) that would eventually become The Rolling Stones.

The question is who the engine was behind this fusion. From my limited understanding and knowledge, this is approximately what happened:

* 17th of October 1961: Mick and Keith meet again at Dartford Rail Station.

* November 1961: Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys record at Jagger’s home in Dartford.

*7th of April 1962: Mick and Keith see Brian Jones for the very first time, performing with Alexis Korner at The Ealing Jazz Club. This is a crucial moment: They talk after the gig. Who knows what was said? Mick probably gives an AFGA cassette tape of the November recordings to Brian, who then gives it to Alexis Korner. This leads to the next point:

*1st of May 1962: DISC writes that Alexis Korner’s Blues Incorporated will play a gig with Mick Jagger on vocals. The band consists of Dave Stevens, Dick Heckstall-Smith, Jack Bruce, Alexis Korner, and Cyril Davies. Brian Jones is in the audience, watching Mick Jagger perform as a vocalist. Mick and Brian will later perform together with Alexis Korner at Ealing Jazz Club.

* May 1962: Charlie Watts joins Alexis Korner’s Blues Incorporated. Mick and Charlie perform togehter with Korner's band.

* May 1962: Brian Jones and Ian Stewart holds auditions for a band they want to start, first at The White Bear, then at the Bricklayer’s Arms – both in Soho. Among the musicians they play with are Geoff Bradford, Andy Wren, Brian Knight, and Dick Hattrell. In late May, Mick, Keith, and Dick Taylor show up. This now become the core of the group: Brian and Stu + Mick, Keith and Dick.

* 1st of July 1962: Alexis Korner cancels his own show at the Marquee Club on the 12th because he’s invited to BBC Radio. Alexis Korner asks Brian Jones if he can form a replacement group. Mick calls DISC from a red phone booth to inform about this new band. According to legend, Brian Jones points to a track on a Muddy Waters record – “Rollin’ Stone Blues” while Mick is on the phone.

*2nd of July 1962: Brian writes a letter to DISC:

“Dear Sirs, I understand Mick Jagger, our singer, has phoned you with regard to our Rhythm and Blues group, the “Rollin’ Stones”. We are playing the marquee, Oxford Street on 12th July, sharing the bill with Long John Baldry’s Band. Our line up is:

Brian Jones – Guitar, Leader.
Keith Richards – Guitar.
Dick Taylor – Bass Guitar.
Ian Stewart – Piano.
Earl Phillips – Drums.
With Mick Jagger – vocals.

Yours faithfully,
Brian Jones.”

(Note: Earl Phillips is a joke, of course. At this point they didn’t have a drummer.)

* 7th of July 1962: DISC writes that Alexis Korner’s gig at the Marquee on 12th of July is cancelled and will be replaced by “Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones”.

* 12th of July 1962: The Rolling Stones play their first gig with Brian, Mick, Stu, Keith + Dick Taylor on bass and probably Tony Chapman on drums.

It can be a bit difficult to settle the score once and for all, but Brian was connected with Alexis Korner more than the others - and that first gig on the Marquee happened only because Korner gave the gig to Brian. Then we can argue who came up with the name, Brian or Mick, but the auditions Brian organzied at Bricklayer's Arms were essential to the creation of the band. DISC mentioned Mick a lot because he made the crucial phone call. I also think Mick got a bit of attention simply because he was the singer, hence the bill "Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones". My educated guess is that the band and the name were both Brian's creations. And then of course Korner plays a vital role: his Tuesday evenings at Ealing Jazz Club brought Brian, Mick, Keith and Charlie togheter.

You call that limited?

So it was Brian and not an internet myth. It’s an amalgamation of Brian/Stu and the Dartford outfit, but it was Brian who instigated the whole thing really.

JumpingKentFlash

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child-of-the-moon


Article pbubished in the Jazz News magazine on July 11, 1962, one day before their very first gig.

The only reason they're citing Mick as the band's founder was because when Blues Inc had a BBC session for 12th July, the Beeb wouldnt pay for three singers, so as he was the only one who didnt also play an instrument he agreed to opt out. As he had been also playing with the Stones (although not publicly) he had a ready made group available to fill in. Jazz News wouldnt have even heard of any of his fellow band mates ('Elmo Lewis' is, of course, Brian Jones)

This report is also the source for the myth that Mick Avory played the first Stones gig which, by his own admission, he didn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-06-27 23:19 by Gazza.

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The Worst.

(Note: Earl Phillips is a joke, of course. At this point they didn’t have a drummer.)

wishful thinking - he was Jimmy Reed's drummer ! (also played with Howlin Wolf, John Lee Hooker and others(

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JumpingKentFlash

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The Worst.
It is true that there was a fusion of two fractions, Brian and Stu + The Dartford Gang (The Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys: Mick, Keith, Dick Taylor) that would eventually become The Rolling Stones.

The question is who the engine was behind this fusion. From my limited understanding and knowledge, this is approximately what happened:



*7th of April 1962: Mick and Keith see Brian Jones for the very first time, performing with Alexis Korner at The Ealing Jazz Club. This is a crucial moment: They talk after the gig. Who knows what was said? Mick probably gives an AFGA cassette tape of the November recordings to Brian, who then gives it to Alexis Korner. This leads to the next point:


It can be a bit difficult to settle the score once and for all, but Brian was connected with Alexis Korner more than the others - and that first gig on the Marquee happened only because Korner gave the gig to Brian. Then we can argue who came up with the name, Brian or Mick, but the auditions Brian organzied at Bricklayer's Arms were essential to the creation of the band. DISC mentioned Mick a lot because he made the crucial phone call. I also think Mick got a bit of attention simply because he was the singer, hence the bill "Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones". My educated guess is that the band and the name were both Brian's creations. And then of course Korner plays a vital role: his Tuesday evenings at Ealing Jazz Club brought Brian, Mick, Keith and Charlie togheter.

You call that limited?

So it was Brian and not an internet myth. It’s an amalgamation of Brian/Stu and the Dartford outfit, but it was Brian who instigated the whole thing really.

Stu's diary entry (reproduced in Stu) puts the Bricklayers Arms as Tuesday/Wed 2nd or 3rd January (the diary entry is spread over the 2 days).....I have had trouble reconciling some of the other dates but this is only a physical reference I can add to the prevailing known knowledge

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Taylor1
Brian Hopkins Jones

and ian andrew robert stewart

in my opinion for what's it's worth these two are responsible for starting the band

also technically it's

lewis brian hopkins jones



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-06-28 00:02 by ProfessorWolf.

Brian. We all know he started the band. He had a vision, he picked the bandmembers, named the group and functioned as a manager in the beginning.

Lauhable to pretend Stu started anything. He’s just a strawman for Keith and some of you Keithettes.

Brian lit the fuse that became the Rolling Stones. Charlie said he was more advanced then than the rest of them musically in the beginning.