And now the Q I never got an A on: who plays the slide, is it just something added by a fan or was it there in 1971/1972.

And about the riff it's a typical "wandering away from a D-chord" thing. Many songs from that era in rock n roll seems to have that same pattern, a little different but same D chord pattern.

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VT22

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Mathijs

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VT22

That "strange" C-chord is an ordinary C#11, containing a raised f (not a lowered g), as it also functions as a guide tone to the root of the G-chord.

Can you explain that? A C11 has a C as root, Bflat, D and F. When you say raised F it would mean the root would have been F, which it isn't. The LIL chord has no root as it is unresolved, with a C, Gflat and G (the Gflat is dissonant). I see it personally as a Cmaj7 with a raised B to Fsharp, which to my knowledge doesn't have a proper name as it doesn not have a root, it is a passing triad. When you would have an A as root you would get Amin13. This is why I see it as a piano chord -on a guitar the C/Gflat/G triad is not a guitar chord, it is someting piano players are more used to. Unless you're some kind of jazz guitarist I guess.

Mathijs

Sure I can:

I take it we both agree I'am talking about a C(#11) lydian chord? The F# involved leads to the root of the G chord: it is both a nice tension and a guide tone, very common in medieval (lute) music already. I'am sorry if my "C#11" led to your somewhat confused answer.

I am out of my league in jazz guitar playing, but C(11) has a bflat -so raising the F to F# for C(#11) still needs a Bflat (C/F#/Bflat/G). Richards riff leads to B, not Bflat.

If it is a passing note towards the root of the G chord I would expect a full C chord with only a lowered G to F# (C,f#/C/E).

Mathijs

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Redhotcarpet
And now the Q I never got an A on: who plays the slide, is it just something added by a fan or was it there in 1971/1972.

well , it seems a ( not very good) try-out and if it isn't added as you say by a fan , i'd say it was keith.

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Mathijs

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VT22

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Mathijs

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VT22

That "strange" C-chord is an ordinary C#11, containing a raised f (not a lowered g), as it also functions as a guide tone to the root of the G-chord.

Can you explain that? A C11 has a C as root, Bflat, D and F. When you say raised F it would mean the root would have been F, which it isn't. The LIL chord has no root as it is unresolved, with a C, Gflat and G (the Gflat is dissonant). I see it personally as a Cmaj7 with a raised B to Fsharp, which to my knowledge doesn't have a proper name as it doesn not have a root, it is a passing triad. When you would have an A as root you would get Amin13. This is why I see it as a piano chord -on a guitar the C/Gflat/G triad is not a guitar chord, it is someting piano players are more used to. Unless you're some kind of jazz guitarist I guess.

Mathijs

Sure I can:

I take it we both agree I'am talking about a C(#11) lydian chord? The F# involved leads to the root of the G chord: it is both a nice tension and a guide tone, very common in medieval (lute) music already. I'am sorry if my "C#11" led to your somewhat confused answer.

I am out of my league in jazz guitar playing, but C(11) has a bflat -so raising the F to F# for C(#11) still needs a Bflat (C/F#/Bflat/G). Richards riff leads to B, not Bflat.

If it is a passing note towards the root of the G chord I would expect a full C chord with only a lowered G to F# (C,f#/C/E).

Mathijs

The first chord is a Dsus2 (suspended 2nd) and is a very common chord used often in country and by the stones in many different guises - it's the fist chord struck in Dead Flowers for example. It's not a D9 because it doesn't contain a dom7th but you could also call it a D add9 if you so wish - it's a bit academic really.
I think the second chord is C dim5 (diminished 5th). Although the dim5 is a passing note, the note is very important to the sound of the chord in general and it is part of a very nice run up sequence of notes F# G G A B inside the chord sequence. It is all very nice stuff and typical of jazz and music hall sequences amongst other things.

Absolutely beautiful piece of work. This song grows on me each time I hear it. Another one that's gron on me recently is I Just Wanna See His Face. Very muddy sound but after a while you start to penetrate it and it suddenly becomes a whole new beast.

For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-05-16 19:16 by Koen.

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sjs12
Another one that's grown on me recently is I Just Wanna See His Face.

after a while you start to penetrate it and it suddenly becomes a whole new beast.

Right on sjs12, I'm looking for inspiration today , I'm going to try to digest this one again per your recommendation. Thanks for the bump. peace

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Naturalust

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sjs12
Another one that's grown on me recently is I Just Wanna See His Face.

after a while you start to penetrate it and it suddenly becomes a whole new beast.

Right on sjs12, I'm looking for inspiration today , I'm going to try to digest this one again per your recommendation. Thanks for the bump. peace

It's funny, I loved JWTSHF from the first listen, but I still don't "get" the appeal of LIL.

But Naturalust, I LOVE your version of LIL; it beats the original, in my book ... more twangy and soulful. Yours is like a beautifully-faded pair of blue jeans that didn't look right when they were new.

Drew

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Koen
For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.

Yes, but for it to be a D11/C, surely it would NEED to have a D in it? But it's debateable.

wow drewmaster I don't know what to say to that except thank you very much !! Very kind words thrown my way, I really appreciate it, makes my day actually. peace

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sjs12

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Koen
For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.

Yes, but for it to be a D11/C, surely it would NEED to have a D in it? But it's debateable.

But this is my point from the beginning: it is a piano chord, where you have 10 fingers to put anywhere you want it. The chord is a bit like the ending chord in the intro to If You Really Want To Be My Friend: it touches all bases, but as it is unresolved, it doesn't have a root and therfore can't be named. D11/C, Amin13, C(#11), and what ever more: all thes chords have a root or defining tone that is missing from the chord played here. To my mind, there is no chord with C, F# and G that does not resolve.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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sjs12

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Koen
For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.

Yes, but for it to be a D11/C, surely it would NEED to have a D in it? But it's debateable.

But this is my point from the beginning: it is a piano chord, where you have 10 fingers to put anywhere you want it. The chord is a bit like the ending chord in the intro to If You Really Want To Be My Friend: it touches all bases, but as it is unresolved, it doesn't have a root and therfore can't be named. D11/C, Amin13, C(#11), and what ever more: all thes chords have a root or defining tone that is missing from the chord played here. To my mind, there is no chord with C, F# and G that does not resolve.

Mathijs

Except that the F# is a passing note on the way to G, which is why I called it a C-5. Still, it's only a name and there's more than one way to name a sequence of 3 notes.

I wouldn't necessarily call them "piano chords" although I know exactly what you mean. However, much of the riff is quite piano sounding until the Em/G bit when suddenly you hear classic Keith fills. I think there was indeed a high chance that the sequence was first written on piano.

I play these type of chords alot and don't play piano. When I was a kid I used to do stints in the orchestra pit and had to learn so many chords back to front at sight and that helped me lots. All those old music hall and jazz songs use these chord sequences and ascending or descending notes in the middle of chords. It's really great even if you're not into the music that much and certainly isn't limited to those styles. Hot Burrito #1 is a classic example of use of chromatic runs inside chord sequences.

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Mathijs

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sjs12

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Koen
For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.

Yes, but for it to be a D11/C, surely it would NEED to have a D in it? But it's debateable.

But this is my point from the beginning: it is a piano chord, where you have 10 fingers to put anywhere you want it. The chord is a bit like the ending chord in the intro to If You Really Want To Be My Friend: it touches all bases, but as it is unresolved, it doesn't have a root and therfore can't be named. D11/C, Amin13, C(#11), and what ever more: all thes chords have a root or defining tone that is missing from the chord played here. To my mind, there is no chord with C, F# and G that does not resolve.

Mathijs

Every chord/arpeggio can be named, otherwise it's not a chord, and of course every tone of the chord can be the root. And every chord can resolute by using modal interchange -if necessary. When a guitarist plays a chord, he doesn't have to play the root, he can leave it to the bass player..
The guitarist plays the so called upper structure (triad) in that case.

For example: a Cma7/9 : cegbd. The bass plays the root: c. The guitarist plays the upper structure: egbd, which looks like an Emin7, but together they actually play a Cmaj7/9. That defines the chord. The guitarist would read: Emin7/C.

"If you really want to be my friend" starts with an E7+5, an augmented dominant seventh, resolving into A minor (If I remember the right key). So it's defined.

Let me leave it at that.

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pinkfloydthebarber
****It's in F.*****

- well yeah, because of the capo

but it starts with an arpeggiated descending run based on a D chord (with a capo on 3) that takes a detour through an A before getting back to the D. it repeats itself, then the detour is through an E minor, also played twice

so if you mean with the capo, that its in F (in that the D becomes an F) well then yeah

Well, yes, but the whole song is in F. Yes, it's a descending D position chord.

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sjs12

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Koen
For what it is worth, in the link I posted yesterday, the second chord is labeled D11/C. I think I got that from the Exile Tab book.

D11 is D F# A C and G, D11/C then has the C as a bass note.

Yes, but for it to be a D11/C, surely it would NEED to have a D in it? But it's debateable.

It does, it rings through from the first D chord.

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Mathijs

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Palace Revolution 2000
My gut feeling says that this whole passage; the entire guitar lines were all written by one person. By Keith; strumming and piecing it together how it flows right, how it sounds good.
What all these positions are called later on is for others to figure out.
That's like reading a chart to JJF and seeing Bb6 and Bbdim. Nobody approaches JJf saying "I have to play a Bbdiminished" Yet everyone who plays guitar knows the riff.

No, that's why so many people play Stones music wrong, including the riff to JJF. They think 'its only G, what can go wrong'. Well, a lot can go wrong actually.

Mathijs

Yes, but you don't play it wrong. (As I'd wager most guitarists here). And I have never met you, but I just can't believe you figured it out by getting your Bdiminshed chord in place. A good ear is a good ear.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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Mathijs

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Palace Revolution 2000
My gut feeling says that this whole passage; the entire guitar lines were all written by one person. By Keith; strumming and piecing it together how it flows right, how it sounds good.
What all these positions are called later on is for others to figure out.
That's like reading a chart to JJF and seeing Bb6 and Bbdim. Nobody approaches JJf saying "I have to play a Bbdiminished" Yet everyone who plays guitar knows the riff.

No, that's why so many people play Stones music wrong, including the riff to JJF. They think 'its only G, what can go wrong'. Well, a lot can go wrong actually.

Mathijs

Yes, but you don't play it wrong. (As I'd wager most guitarists here). And I have never met you, but I just can't believe you figured it out by getting your Bdiminshed chord in place. A good ear is a good ear.

Well sitting up close on Keith side of the stage for 20 years of shows studying his left hand most of the time doesn't hurt either...lol peace

********Well, yes, but the whole song is in F. Yes, it's a descending D position chord.********

----

agreed. the capo changes the key to F even though it begins with that D shape. (or two-thirds of a D shape, anyway)

One of their all time best songs and one of Jagger's best, if not THE best, recorded vocal performances. Also stands out as the guitar figure is not typical Keith.

I just had to look up this track in Renee's list. I have been re-reading all my Stones-books, and been on Bill Wyman's 'Rolling w/ the Stones'. Deep in there is a quick mention of their doings during the 'Let it Bleed' sessions.
And yes, there it is - they started this track back during the LIB album. "Let in Bleed' -- 'Let it Loose' (meanwhile the Beatles are doing 'Let it Be)

Lots of theoretical stuff here (which is greeek to me, he he).

But did we manage to play the correct chords?





[www.youtube.com]

Ohh, very nice version showing that Keith can sing it too...

2 1 2 0

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Silver Dagger
One of the last songs I got to appreciate on Exile but now one of the most enduring and fascinating. It has a fantastic gospel vibe about it....a bit of Aretha crossed with Dr John who of course is on the track with some of his backing singers including the great Tami Lynn. It's a great come down song...another after your friends have all left in the cold grey light. 10 out of 10 for this one.

Yep,
Not the first track you fall in love with when you buy the album in 1972 as 13 year old lad...but one that gets better & better as the years pass.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-12-21 16:49 by Spud.

I don't know about that. This was my second Stones album, and I was a huge Beatles fan and was really into All Things Must Pass. When I heard Let it Loose for the first time it really hooked me. The gospel rock, reminded me a lot of All Things Must Pass and Let it Be. I was hooked, by its darker more sinister tone, and realized the Stones were going to be my new project. I listened to Exile for hours on my headphones pretendin to do homework. . . Let it Loose became my favorite, and still is in my top five of favorite Stones songs.

'Who's that woman on your arm/all dressed up to do you harm.'

Anita? Or Bianca?

A never ending sequence just like Torn and Frayed. Beautiful.

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Naturalust
Man it's a damn good thing I didn't hear all this theory before I tried to play it, Lots of repect for the guys who know this stuff backwards and forwards but you're scaring the rest of us a bit with these 11th and 13th chords

Yeah....lol
Keith's genius is that he makes the most basic structures complex with his feel, musical phrasing and sense of rhythm.
11th and 13th chords?

Makes folks realise how steeped in music of all kinds Keith actually is.
He's much more of a musician than many folks appreciate .

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Palace Revolution 2000
I just had to look up this track in Renee's list. I have been re-reading all my Stones-books, and been on Bill Wyman's 'Rolling w/ the Stones'. Deep in there is a quick mention of their doings during the 'Let it Bleed' sessions.
And yes, there it is - they started this track back during the LIB album. "Let in Bleed' -- 'Let it Loose' (meanwhile the Beatles are doing 'Let it Be)

Yes, hence why there is mellotron on it.

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wonderboy
'Who's that woman on your arm/all dressed up to do you harm.'

Anita? Or Bianca?

Women through the ages.

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DandelionPowderman
Lots of theoretical stuff here (which is greeek to me, he he).

But did we manage to play the correct chords?





[www.youtube.com]

In fact the second chord is wrong, DP. You should take the second note 2 steps (a whole tone) up.