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drahffir
Why can't the Stones just buy ABKCO at this point?

Often wondered it myself, a leveraged buyout (borrow money against future income from release projects), to be brutal, they could do this as an example.

Value of catalogue - 22 albums and compilations, probably currently sells between 650,000 and 1.2m a year depending on how much hype is generated from licencing, brand associations, TV, Movies and Merchandising, so it could be a steady earner of anything from $1.5m per year to $3m

(i've created a very estimate of mkt size based on some recently published data from Elvis Presley's estate, Janis Joplin, Ray Charles, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse)

So on the face of it, you could probably get it for $30m or so, until you see what will happen when either Mick or Keith pass on, Michael Jackson's estate earned an estimated $320m in the year after his death, phenomenal figures, would the Stones reap this windfall??? highly likely they'd get close, so ABKCO as holders of the Key copyrights, will look to a massive payday.

So you'd be looking a $140m to make them walkaway, a risk, probably not, but who would lend them the money when you take a hard look at it, the big "dead" payday is coming but no one knows when or would be prepared to gamble that much on an uncertain return date and Mick ain't gonna sell everything to do it.

In my mind ABKCO have never produced a decent product, it's pervaded by a cheap look, probably reflective of the management. Hot Rocks which has sold 15 million copies which would subsidize the entire the operation, therefore they can ignore Aftermath, Out of Our Heads and the rest.

I would buy it

When Mick was spending years scrounging to raise the moderate budget for ENIGMA I wondered why he didn't just pay for it himself. And when promoting it, a journalist asked him why hadn't he paid for it himself. Mick said, "What a terrible idea." But he could have released the film years earlier.

I have wondered, now that Allen Klein has passed away, has some of the animosity died down? The Stones' beef was with him. I know his son Jody now runs the company, I wonder if he's a chip off the old block, or if there is a possibility of burying the hatchet and The Stones being able to actually work WITH ABKCO for future releases.

I thought ABKCO did a brilliant job on the Stones SACD reissues in 2002. There's also an Animals GH package in SACD called Retrospective that is first rate with a nice booklet. ABKCO is more than the Stones. Without naming everyone, it's also Hermans Hermits, the Animals, Sam Cooke, and others. I imagine the whole shebang could be cost prohibitive. I doubt that Jody Klein is an idiot and knows he's sitting on very valuable property. The Stones 60s catalogue is obviously the cream, as the band is still operating and still generating new interest in those songs.

But I would also be surprised if there hadn't been some kind of adjustment to the contracts over the years that create more favor for Mick, Keith, and possibly Charlie, Bill, and even the Estate of Brian Jones. (God knows where that money goes, unless Brian was truly bought out and signed over all future revenues from the Stones, a truly stupid thing to do). There was obvious cooperation to create the hybrid 40 Licks ABKCO/Virgin CD. More favorable adjustments to the contract would insure good will with the band and encourage usage of the ABKCO portion of the Stones catalogue.

... i can imagine a few reasons for them not buying ABKCO, but "it's not for sale" is the main one

There's more to ABKCO than just Rolling Stones records. Those tentacles are far-reaching. Besides, just taking care of the their enterprise now is probably a headache in itself.

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SKILLS

So on the face of it, you could probably get it for $30m or so, until you see what will happen when either Mick or Keith pass on, Michael Jackson's estate earned an estimated $320m in the year after his death, phenomenal figures, would the Stones reap this windfall??? highly likely they'd get close, so ABKCO as holders of the Key copyrights, will look to a massive payday.

I just comment this part of the intersting post (and agree with the rest of it). I would say fortunately that kind of massive big day will not happen when the worst possible scenario for Mick or Keith happens (I think the Stones never call it quits before that scenario - why should they?). I say fortunately because thanks to their long career and long life that will not be such a shock but more like a natural phenomenon, and their memory will be treated more like with respect than with over-whelming passion for a sudden loss. Surely, the sells will increase, and all kind memos happen, but it will not be like with the acts who die tragically and way too young (Michael Jackson, Freddy Mercury, Amy Winehouse, Kurt Cobain, Whitney Houston)). Those deaths were shocks and people had a lot of compassion, which translated in HUGE sells. Even back in the old days, the tragical deaths had effects in sales. For example, the only number ones Otis Redding and Jimi Hendrix had took place immediately after their deaths ("Sittin On the Dock of The Bay", "Voodoo Chile"). But most likely the death of Brian Jones did not have that kind of effect (only probably to the sales of THROUGH THE PAST DARKLY?)

Damn, too depressive topic to talk about...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-02 09:28 by Doxa.

I wonder how these deals "go down"? I wonder what are the ins and outs of the deals? I bet the ABKCO catalog would be a nice piece to add, if someone already owns some catalogs like this... e.g. I think Paul McCartney owns a lot (some) of other people's music... and I think Michael Jackson did too.

If anyone knows this business works, I would like to hear more about how some deals went down.... who brokers these things?... is it done by auction or are they close (business insider) transactions?... I bet there are some good stories about Paul McCartney and others buying stuff.... maybe there are... maybe it is boring... I dont know... does anyone else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-02 09:36 by Max'sKansasCity.

My theory:

On his deathbed, despite being afflicted with Alzheimer's disease, Allen Klein whispered his dying words to his son Jody:

"Never...sell the catalogue...to those b@stards..."

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Bliss
My theory:

On his deathbed, despite being afflicted with Alzheimer's disease, Allen Klein whispered his dying words to his son Jody:

"Never...sell the catalogue...to those b@stards..."

Haha - I imagined exactly the same thing..!

Andy

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Bliss
My theory:

On his deathbed, despite being afflicted with Alzheimer's disease, Allen Klein whispered his dying words to his son Jody:

"Never...sell the catalogue...to those b@stards..."

LOL!!!

and to this day every attempt has been met with....
no NO NO NO NO NO NO

My theory is Allen got to heaven, heard the angel choir and tried to sue them for copyright infringement on a song from the ABCKO catalog, so they sent him to hell.

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SKILLS

Value of catalogue - 22 albums and compilations, probably currently sells between 650,000 and 1.2m a year depending on how much hype is generated from licencing, brand associations, TV, Movies and Merchandising, so it could be a steady earner of anything from $1.5m per year to $3m

The money is not made solely with selling the albums. The money is made by playing the songs on the radio, in advertisements, in movies and whatever. Yearly earnings are probably ten times higher than what you estimate.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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SKILLS

Value of catalogue - 22 albums and compilations, probably currently sells between 650,000 and 1.2m a year depending on how much hype is generated from licencing, brand associations, TV, Movies and Merchandising, so it could be a steady earner of anything from $1.5m per year to $3m

The money is not made solely with selling the albums. The money is made by playing the songs on the radio, in advertisements, in movies and whatever. Yearly earnings are probably ten times higher than what you estimate.
Mathijs

Gee Mathijs thats amazing, really I thought they toured for free.

I'd like to now how you'd come up with that random figure 10x, me thinks you are more than a little inflated in your estimate.

So here begins a little background into what SOME people misunderstand, the Figures you've heard in the media $558m BB, $336m Bridges/No Security,$316m Voodoo, $299m Licks & $180m on Steel Wheels/Japan/Jungle, add up to a rough 1.6/7b give or take, now the article i'll link you to quotes filed documents in Holland that declare $450m was taxed in the prior 20 years (since 87). Read on for the breakdown

So they've taken (of their $450m) about $320 mil in touring revenues, (20% of the gross figure $1.6b is a top deal) and $130m in 20 years, from recording contracts,firstly Virgin/EMI at about $45m for the album sequence Voodoo, Stripped, Bridges, Security, Licks, Licks Live and ABB, Then UMG deal $15m for the back catalogue and whatever else they deliver, Additional licencing for Films (Scorcese has been a high profile patron), Windows 95 plus product tie in's from Boxers to Monopoly,

The additional publishing revenue from catalogue sales which as at 2008 were 24m in the USA since 1991 only 3.6m of that are from the new albums, My estimate of 650k to 1.2m of back catalog per year since 1989 easily provides enough for the figures i've given above,

So here we are with a reasonable picture of the Stones wider financial position.

Now the wider picture we are talking about here is Stones Inc revenues funneled through Holland which are then made available to the Stones themselves, obviously it's not a quarter share each, as shown in Bills book "Rolling With The Stones" Publishing royalties are meagre if you don't write the songs, Jagger/Richards not Wood/Wyman/Watts.

So I've tried to be high level without addressing the Taxes (1.6% is reported in Holland for performance royalties, which just about everything they earn can be classified, as the Stones themselves license their performance and image rights to their own publishing and licensing companies (often now owned buy family trusts) to on sell too The Rolling Stones Inc (to simplify their corporate arrangements) which then licence the collective to the Promogroup which then ...you get the picture.

Mathijs your Ten Times statement is at best wildly inaccurate.

So don't be fooled by people inflating the earnings of our heroes, they've done well, have they invested wisely?? Mick and Charlie apparently so, Keith hopefully, certainly has had a decent cashlow, Ronnie we'll Ronnie he's special.

So who could buy ABKCO, Someone with $200 - $250m i'd say

Anyway here's some helpful links

[www.nytimes.com]

[www.nytimes.com]

Wow!

How do you quote another poster in the first post of a new thread ?

Mick thinks it's a bad idea because where is the payout in his lifetime?.. compared to other investments he could make. Buying something on a sentimental value is generally bad business. I am guessing he has found a way to minimize ABKCO's take off the catalog by rerecording most of the songs in a way that does just that. Why buy the original when you can get the live and better officially released version of song x, which does indeed benefit Sir Jagger. Composition copywrites are only a part of the whole copywriting/publishing income stream.

I trust Mick to make a pretty solid business decision concerning that portion of the catalog. Keith on the other hand would probably take a beating just to get the songs back. lol peace

The hatchet has been buried for a long time now. The Stones made deals with ABKCO as early as 1989.

Using ABKCO outtakes form the deluxe Exile wasn't a problem. ABKCO also licensed SWAY and BITCH for their Singles 1968-71 box-set.

And let's not forget Forty Licks.

It isn't a problem anymore.

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SKILLS

Gee Mathijs thats amazing, really I thought they toured for free.

I'd like to now how you'd come up with that random figure 10x, me thinks you are more than a little inflated in your estimate.

So here begins a little background into what SOME people misunderstand, the Figures you've heard in the media $558m BB, $336m Bridges/No Security,$316m Voodoo, $299m Licks & $180m on Steel Wheels/Japan/Jungle, add up to a rough 1.6/7b give or take, now the article i'll link you to quotes filed documents in Holland that declare $450m was taxed in the prior 20 years (since 87). Read on for the breakdown

So they've taken (of their $450m) about $320 mil in touring revenues, (20% of the gross figure $1.6b is a top deal)

No sorry, that's wrong. The $450MM earned and taxed with 1.6% is only the revenues over intellectual properties. Dutch law is that royalties earned outside of Holland are taxed with just 1.6%. The $450MM does not comprise a penny of earnings from touring.

The $450 is roughly $22MM per year royalties for the ABCKO catalogue and royalties and publishing rights over anything released on Rolling Stones Records.

What exactly the worth of ABKCO based on these figures is, is difficult to say. But we can guestimate: let's say 2/3 is from their ABKCO catalogue, 1/3 from RS Records. So, about $15MM is from ABKCO. Publishing rights are about half of recording royalties, so ABKCO is making about $15MM a year on the Stones alone.

It was estimated by (I believe RS Mag) what the net income for the Stones was per tour. If the grossing was $600MM for the BB tour the Stones recieved about $150MM of that. Jagger's annual income was estimated at something like $50MM a year of royalties and touring, which made him his worth something like $650MM in 2007.

Of course, these are all uneductated estimates by journalists, and Jagger probably laughs his way to the bank.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-10 22:23 by Mathijs.

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Blueranger
The hatchet has been buried for a long time now. The Stones made deals with ABKCO as early as 1989.

Using ABKCO outtakes form the deluxe Exile wasn't a problem. ABKCO also licensed SWAY and BITCH for their Singles 1968-71 box-set.

And let's not forget Forty Licks.

It isn't a problem anymore.

Or the Deluxe Ya Ya's, which The Stones had to sign off on.

"Why don't they buy ABKCO at this point?"

Buying something that essentially belongs to you? Even the cold-hearted Jagger would balk at this idea, no?