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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
You sometimes ask yourself: Why does he bother to do interviews at all when he almost never answers the questions?

Why? Because it's a part of the contract. The same reason that (some) writers has to sign their books at bookstores, even if they loathe it.

Of course I understand that, Erik. But somewhere down the line, let's say after one thousand interviews, he might have come to the conclusion that this would be easier if he honestly tried to answer a question or two. And maybe more interesting?

Hmm.. against all expectations, this thread made a second page!

And not just by my posts.><

- Doxa

Special to IORR (from another thread), the unusual origins of one of my
favorite songs and videos ever! No song lifts me like this one from Jagger/Stewart!

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superrevvy

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superrevvy
for your entertainment "waka waka this time for africa" which went
to number one in at least 18 countries a couple years ago.

with 453 million views it is definitely in the running for the
most successful video of all time.

There was something oddly familiar about this track, so i investigated further.
Turns out it is a re-make/re-write of a West African hit from 1986. And in the
West African hit you can hear even more clearly why the song kept giving me
flashbacks. Mick and Dave clearly lifted the rhythm track from it as the basis
of their most infamous of 1987 collaborations (and direct ancestor of SH)
(and maybe most underrated song/video ever). Even the cheap humorous bluescreen
video of the latter may have been was inspired by the former.

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superrevvy
Ba-boom! Proof! (of what I wrote in my previous post)

Waka Waka is pidgin/swahiliFang for "Walk while working"!

Which is exactly the theme of the "let's work" video

I've always liked this album and I still don't understand why so many people have dissed it. There are several strong songs on it. Primitive Cool is a complex and nicely written song that goes beyond much of what the Stones do as a group. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

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Stoneage

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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
You sometimes ask yourself: Why does he bother to do interviews at all when he almost never answers the questions?

Why? Because it's a part of the contract. The same reason that (some) writers has to sign their books at bookstores, even if they loathe it.

Of course I understand that, Erik. But somewhere down the line, let's say after one thousand interviews, he might have come to the conclusion that this would be easier if he honestly tried to answer a question or two. And maybe more interesting?

But Jagger does conclude on that, for the most, and therfor doesn't participate in such silly interviews, neither in the 70s, 90s or 2000s. But obviously things were different in the 80s when he tried to launch a solo career. The same reason Bill WYman took part of lots of talkshows in the early 80s, on his own.

I bought it the day it was released, listen to it one time, and I believe that's it. Haven't listen to it since then, and that front-cover can easily win the prize for being one of the ugliest of all time...

I just have to listen to it this evening....



2 1 2 0

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tomcat2006

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liddas
Occasionally good (not great) songwriting is not enough to save Jagger's solo albums. His albums are by far the worst if compared to what Keith, Ronnie, even Charlie and Taylor did (Bill, I do not know because I never bought one of his).

Keith is the only one who was able to create music on the same level of the best Stones' stuff. Different, sure, but same quality work.

Jagger made She's the Boss that is quite good. All the others that follow are the repetition of the same scheme. Is any ballad really different or better than Hard Woman? Same for the fast song.

Primitive Cool is not much worse than Boss, but is way better than the grately overrated Spirit.

C

Can't agree with this post. I'm afraid.

I'd say Wandering Spirit is unrivalled by any other sole Stones albumn.

The only ones to come near it are Talk Is Cheap and Ronnie's latest I Feel Like Playing (which is excellent if you haven't heard it).

+1

It has very nice songs, but 80s production ruined it............ and MJ's ambitio to be a multimedia star (the video ant the song itself are terrible - let's work)

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Gazza

Radio Control is a really underrated song IMO. The second best on the album.

Yes, Radio Control & Peace For The Wicked are 2 highly underrated Mick tracks! Both are great!

Party Doll is great too, great harp, but I think most would agree w/ this one.

... Oh, and I love War Baby!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-26 20:10 by LeonidP.

I think it is one of the worst albums released in the 80's, by any band.

Mathijs

You said it, Mathijs! And he didn't settle with one, he had to make four of them. The effort was hardly worth the price: The breaking up of the band.
Sure they got together again in 1989 but by then they weren't the same band anymore...

The first time I ever read an in-depth interview with Mick was Guitar magazine in '87 when he put out this album. He also had an interview on muchmusic during the era. He seemed relaxed in his plaid shirt, quite friendly an unpretentious compared to interviews before and since.

I think he gets marks for an honest effort on the album, even compared to She's the Boss (although neither are great albums). We are given a different Jagger though - for whatever that's worth.

Still, it's hard to get over the ridiculous yoda-chalk-drawing of him on the cover haha!!

[thepowergoats.com]

I find myself liking the 3 songs posted here from the album... Even the much derided Let's Work!

Every taste bud in my musical tongue is telling me to hate them, but something in the song writing and the sounds coming from Mick make me like them.

Regarding Mick's solo albums, I think he obviously likes to do them, that he puts all his energy in to them and then once completed and promoted he quickly moves on without much if any looking back upon them.

They are creative outlets free from the weight and pressure of The Rolling Stones. Pieces of whim and fancy, playful, but also, on occasion, featuring genuine inspiration and emotion.

I think if you look hard, you can find some real gems hidden in Primitive Cool...hidden in the bad production and wedged between the awful songs, and in horrendous packaging.

I think question really is...why bother, given the myriad of other choices out there, Stones and nonstones music? I put the CD on about a year ago, and was blown away by how bad the production is...very dated.

There is just way more choice out there...we don't need this.

not very good at all, but still better than any winos crap, at least it is somewhat listenable.

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liddas

Sure Jagger can write great songs, but for one reason or the other, his talent and potential does not show on his solo work. songwriting is only one ingredient of good music. The music on Jagger's albums is so professionally sterile that even good songs sound not as good as they could be.

Keith solo work is just great music. Great music doesn't need to be in the form of "song" to be great.

Keith started from the foundations and first assembled a band, the tone.

Jagger never was able to do the same. That is why I would love to hear him perform a best of his solo stuff alone, just him and a piano or a guitar.

C

I believe Doxa is correct with regard to Keith's half baked riffs, and tossed off lyrics, liddas, and there is no doubt for me that Jagger, in the latter half of his career, is the better songwriter in terms of song structure. However, it is also true that often Jagger's solo music does have a very slick, and ultimately sterile sound, overwhelmingly, and that perhaps Keith is actually better equipped to reach into the heart of his songs, without so many musical contrivances getting in the way. However, on balance, and despite a few pretty good songs on Keith's TALK IS CHEAP, Jagger comes out the clear winner in my opinion. Keith may have been the heart musically of the Stones in the very early days (up to and including EXILE), yet Mick has pretty much kept them afloat ever since. Jagger's very clever in terms of him using a number of diverse influences within his music, which tends to prevent him becoming too samey within his solo career, but there are also those times when he loses sight of being able to connect with the heart of the songs because of this. Jagger really came into his own in terms of finding new and interesting avenues to explore, post EXILE ON MAIN STREET, when he was pretty much left to steer the group. Even then not everything worked, but occasionally things did work out remarkably well - 'Miss You', 'Fool To Cry', 'Emotional Rescue' etc. for example. Post Jagger's solo career, however, and within the context of Jagger incorporating more modern technology, he's often been guilty of going up a blind alley, without any idea of where he's going. However, on all Jagger's solo albums there are a few good songs, even if the overall results aren't as pleasing as one may like. Sometimes it's true, Jagger should concentrate on what best suits the songs requirements, above trying to incorporate too many, ultimately, dodgy modern musical devices. Maybe with WANDERING SPIRIT he did try that, although the professionalism of his band's clinical sound, proved a far cry from the Stones more murky musical accomplishments in their heyday. I am one of those listeners who find WANDERING SPIRIT one of Jagger's least interesting offerings.

Second chance...

2 1 2 0

For anyone curious about the artwork, it was done by the great Francesco Clemente (who also did the cover for the "One Hit" single).

I'm getting the drift that the disparaging comments come from the "my kid could do better" school of art criticism.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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Glam Descendant
For anyone curious about the artwork, it was done by the great Francesco Clemente (who also did the cover for the "One Hit" single).

I'm getting the drift that the disparaging comments come from the "my kid could do better" school of art criticism.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Everyone can have a bad day.

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Come On

Second chance...

And the results are:

(1) PRIMITIVE COOL
(2) MAIN OFFENDER
(3) NOW LOOK
(4) STONE ALONE

(only difficult concerned the order of Keith's and Ron's albums, but finally it was easy: with quality songs like "Hate It When You leave", "Words of Wonder" and "Yap Yap" Keith easily wins even though most of the album is demo-sounding recicled riff excercises. Ronnie's album problem is the lack of quality song-writing altogether even though he comes up with some great grooves.)

- Doxa

Well I say:

1/ Now Look
2/ Primitive Cool
3/ Main Offender
4/ Stone Alone



2 1 2 0

>Everyone can have a bad day.

I guess you mean the critics.

There are photos that include the artwork used for "One Hit" in an "Architectural Digest" spread on Mick & Jerry's NYC apt. from the 80s so maybe Mick decided to use artwork he already owned for commercial purposes after the fact (I suspect the UC apple painting may be another example of this methodology). The PC cover on the other hand must have been commissioned specifically for the cover; perhaps Jagger even had input on what he wanted. Clemente did the inner sleeve as well (the workers making the record).

The Yoda comment is ... telling; I always thought it was supposed to represent Pan. (Not Peter.)

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Glam Descendant
For anyone curious about the artwork, it was done by the great Francesco Clemente (who also did the cover for the "One Hit" single).

I'm getting the drift that the disparaging comments come from the "my kid could do better" school of art criticism.

[en.wikipedia.org]

This is an interesting feature of Jagger's. He sometimes tries to mix popular mass culture and its 'easy' features with the 'higher' - or let's say more ambitious - art. At least he seems to flirt with that combination. For example, ONE PLUS ONE with Godard was probably the first combination of that. Then hiring controversial photographer Robet Frank - who is not a fan of popular culture at all and couldn't care less of narcistic rock stars - to film the American tour was already a high risk in commercial terms. He tried to speak Escher to make an album cover (no success), then got Warhol whose 'pop art', of course, is rather accessible in popular terms. In this sense Clement's cover in PRIMITIVE COOL belong to a pattern.

In each of these cases we could have a debate how successful the results are. At least usually they are not very accessible. I personally admire Jagger's dareness to do such things, even though I think it could be also something just to please his ego and vanity. But he does that knowing its commercial riskies. So it is a mark of certain ambition. Against many wrong suppositions, Jagger does not always go the easiest way. (Like he has commented, he could do a country&western album knowing it would sell good but he is just not interested. That is to say that he doesn't sell himself cheap; he wants to have success in certain terms of his own.)

But my personal opinion of the cover is that - with the leading single and its video - Jagger didn't really make it easier at all to access the album... but the cover also marks one more 'radical' feature of PRIMIIVE COOL in compared to his other albums.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-27 09:55 by Doxa.

<This is an interesting feature of Jagger's. He sometimes tries mix popular mass culture and its 'easy' features with the 'higher' art.

Exactly. I mean, anyone could (and did) just ring up Hipgnosis and say they need an album cover.

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Edward Twining

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liddas

Sure Jagger can write great songs, but for one reason or the other, his talent and potential does not show on his solo work. songwriting is only one ingredient of good music. The music on Jagger's albums is so professionally sterile that even good songs sound not as good as they could be.

Keith solo work is just great music. Great music doesn't need to be in the form of "song" to be great.

Keith started from the foundations and first assembled a band, the tone.

Jagger never was able to do the same. That is why I would love to hear him perform a best of his solo stuff alone, just him and a piano or a guitar.

C

I believe Doxa is correct with regard to Keith's half baked riffs, and tossed off lyrics, liddas, and there is no doubt for me that Jagger, in the latter half of his career, is the better songwriter in terms of song structure. However, it is also true that often Jagger's solo music does have a very slick, and ultimately sterile sound, overwhelmingly, and that perhaps Keith is actually better equipped to reach into the heart of his songs, without so many musical contrivances getting in the way. However, on balance, and despite a few pretty good songs on Keith's TALK IS CHEAP, Jagger comes out the clear winner in my opinion. Keith may have been the heart musically of the Stones in the very early days (up to and including EXILE), yet Mick has pretty much kept them afloat ever since. Jagger's very clever in terms of him using a number of diverse influences within his music, which tends to prevent him becoming too samey within his solo career, but there are also those times when he loses sight of being able to connect with the heart of the songs because of this. Jagger really came into his own in terms of finding new and interesting avenues to explore, post EXILE ON MAIN STREET, when he was pretty much left to steer the group. Even then not everything worked, but occasionally things did work out remarkably well - 'Miss You', 'Fool To Cry', 'Emotional Rescue' etc. for example. Post Jagger's solo career, however, and within the context of Jagger incorporating more modern technology, he's often been guilty of going up a blind alley, without any idea of where he's going. However, on all Jagger's solo albums there are a few good songs, even if the overall results aren't as pleasing as one may like. Sometimes it's true, Jagger should concentrate on what best suits the songs requirements, above trying to incorporate too many, ultimately, dodgy modern musical devices. Maybe with WANDERING SPIRIT he did try that, although the professionalism of his band's clinical sound, proved a far cry from the Stones more murky musical accomplishments in their heyday. I am one of those listeners who find WANDERING SPIRIT one of Jagger's least interesting offerings.

IMO, you're judging the albums in a more technical way than I would have done.

I find Keith's output showing much more "heart" than that of Jagger. The same goes for the first Ronnie-albums, too.

I think that is exactly what liddas is saying, too, when he says "Great music doesn't need to be in the form of "song" to be great."

Keith was the pulse and heart of the Stones, but he needed Mick to complete his vision (read: reach the broader masses).

I think you're right about Mick being the most consistant songwriter today, though, but that has to do with lots of other stuff probably.

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Doxa

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Come On

Second chance...

And the results are:

(1) PRIMITIVE COOL
(2) MAIN OFFENDER
(3) NOW LOOK
(4) STONE ALONE

(only difficult concerned the order of Keith's and Ron's albums, but finally it was easy: with quality songs like "Hate It When You leave", "Words of Wonder" and "Yap Yap" Keith easily wins even though most of the album is demo-sounding recicled riff excercises. Ronnie's album problem is the lack of quality song-writing altogether even though he comes up with some great grooves.)

- Doxa

Horrendous

1. Now Look
2. Main Offender
3. Primitive Cool
4. Stone Alone

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Glam Descendant
<This is an interesting feature of Jagger's. He sometimes tries mix popular mass culture and its 'easy' features with the 'higher' art.

Exactly. I mean, anyone could (and did) just ring up Hipgnosis and say they need an album cover.

Yep. But the point to not use the most obvious fashion of the day, helps the album cover to survive in a long run. I mean, just compare it to the cover of DIRTY WORK that tried to apply the aesthetics of the day. Probably it was accessible to the eyes in in 1986, but now it looks is simply horrible - so dated. But PRIMITIVE COOL looks now exactly the same as it did then (be it good or bad.) .

Then we could also say that the ambitious and 'difficult' ONE PLUS ONE and CS BLUES are aesthetically speaking not so dated as, say, Jagger's simply horrible RUNNING OUT OF LUCK that tried to use the hottest popular trends of the day. And PERFORMANCE compared to FREE JACK

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-27 10:17 by Doxa.

But PRIMITIVE COOL looks now exactly the same as it did then (be it good or bad.) .



Exactly. It still looks horrible, one of the ugliest front-covers on a LP-album I own...

2 1 2 0

She's the Boss is the Jagger solo album with some hidden gems, and with some excellent vocals by Mick -all burried deep down in this 80's synth pop overproduced sound. Wandering Spirit just is a fantastic album -really the best Stones album since Tattoo You. All other Jagger solo outtings are simply horrendous. Bad song writing, the singing is barking and shouting, the guitar playing dreadfull, the drumming over the top, the production is awfull. There's no way around it.

Talk is Cheap is a mixed affair to me -Make No Mistake and You Don't Move Me are in the top ten of best songs ever written by Richards, Big Enough, Struggle, How I Wish and Whip it Up would be gems on any Stones album, but the rest indeed is a bit too loose, too much demo like to me.

Mathijs

Great thread, Doxa!

I have two points to keep the discussion going on a bit longer ;-)

First -
I'm a bit suprised that almost everybody seems to hate the Primitive Cool artwork and I, frankly, don't get it. To me it's the best artwork on any Mick Jagger solo album, because

a) it really suits the album title
b) it's well executed
c) (most important) it's the only sign of "honest" self mockery an any MJ cover.
(Ok, maybe She's The Boss is another one, but that one seems forced, just as any other MJ cover, like Wandering Spirit (ZERO humor) or Goddess In The Doorway (what is that - Elvis?).

I like that cover just the way, I like the Dirty Work inner sleeve. The fitness instructor on there is such a perfect picture of our beloved Brenda, and it's fun.


Second -
I'm not as disgusted by the sound and production of this album as many seem to be here. I think it's one of the more successful examples of that late 80s "big" sound. In fact, I think the "larger-than-live" drums are a good counterpart to Jeff Beck's howling and barking lead guitar here, and the mix - while extensively "produced" - comes across as enjoyably accessible and wide open - lots of space between the few instruments. Primitive Cool in a way.


My only problem with the album are the tracks on it. It's hardly a masterpiece, more of a fashionable pop solo album, similar to one of the latest Madonna albums. Full of ambition and energetic trying (which seems to be one of it's charms), full of competent musisicans, but lacking any true Rock'n'Roll Spirit as well as any real deepness or experimentation. Just a plain, simple pop-rock record. Sort of Jagger's Let's Dance.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-27 11:54 by Greenblues.