I finally watched "Havana Moon" this weekend. I had listened to it but had been hesitant about watching it. The performance is fine & it was a historic show. The reason I was hesitant was born out. This could be just me but the the way "Havana" & "Summer Sun" were filmed makes me crazy. The editing gives me a headache. Whoever is directing doesn't give the performance any room to breathe. For instance I would like to watch Keith (& the others) perform for more than 10 seconds at a time before cutting to the next shot. Slight exaggeration there but not really. Also, I felt there were waaaaay too many crowd shots in both films. People were excited, ok we get it. I want to watch the band, not the crowd. we don't need to be in the film at the level that is being presented. I want to watch the Stones not a bunch people my age & older hippy dancing & having group hugs!

Its a problem with MANY concert videos these days. And for a decent time now.

Agreed, but the Stones are major culprits:
- Too many crowd shots,
- Too many different camera views per minute.

One of the reasons I steered clear of both releases...

It's quite better than decades ago. Compare with barcelona 1990 which is worst in my opinion. Almost every second there was a cut....

I don't mind the crowd shots...unless they're of set up & staged variety .

These are so bloody obvious that I don't know why they bother.

I also dislike it when they cut several different concerts together.

I've really not bothered with concert videos since the early 80's (LSTNT was the last one I actually bought). If they're on one of the channels I'll maybe watch but can tend to be a bit 'same-old, same old'. Did quite enjoy the prep to the Cuba outing however.

"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."

Yeah, anything from the "modern era" can be a bit "same old same old" ...

...but I'm often fascinated by the subtle changes and variations in the song arrangements over time .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-07 13:33 by Spud.

I don't think they areall the same filming wise.
Havana Moon is much, much better than SSS where there are too many fast moving cameras (the worst is the one above Charlie that turns up and down all the time).
In Havana Moon there are many camera angles yes, but most of the time they show what is important. It wasn't cut randomly as SSS is sometimes but catches the communication of the band members at the right moments.
I also like seeing the audience because that's what a concert ia about - the chemistry between the band and the audience. Especially in Havana Moon it's great to see how the people are emotionally affected.
I only hate the Fonda film for having a bunch of models in the front rows that don't even know the chorus lyrics to Brown Sugar. It's totally obvious that this is staged.

While I like Havana Moon, dislike SSS and think Fonda is okay (all filming wise), I think that the cutting on San Jose 1999 is really bad. Too many cuts and not focused on the right things. If Keith plays a great lick I want to see Keith not Ronnie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-07 13:02 by StonedRambler.

There were some TV series in the 90s that made me sick because of the filming, couldn't watch more than 2 minutes; maybe it was NYPD blue or X-files, the cameras switched positions constantly, obviously trying to hide that the plot sucked and the actors were terrible, and I feel the same about most RS live videos from the last 20 years.
Even the videos of the 70s and 80s that is annoying in the way that they focuses on Jagger 80% of the time, like L&G, Fort Worth 78 and Leeds 82, deserves Oscar awards compared to Shine a Light, Sweet Summer sun, etc

I have to admit that, more often than not, when I play them, I'm just listening and not watching.

How hard can it be? A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.
Hampton is good also since it was a simple PPV. A good concert video is the one where you get the unadulterated feeling of being part of the concert. Four Flicks is pretty good also.
Many of their recent trials have been over-elaborated. The feeling of presence is gone.

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Stoneage
A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

Strange that you say that; I think the sound is awful on Serious Moonlight, sounds like it's buired under cotton. The footage is good, but the sound; not so. If you want to hear the 1983 tour in all it's glory, one has to go to the bootleg market.

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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

Strange that you say that; I think the sound is awful on Serious Moonlight, sounds like it's buired under cotton. The footage is good, but the sound; not so. If you want to hear the 1983 tour in all it's glory, one has to go to the bootleg market.

The sound is good enough (at least for "fat"-tv and taped VHS, which was my source...) I'm sure there are better ones out there though. What I was trying to point out was the whole concept of this gig though.
Especially the "honest" audience interaction and how it was filmed.

Agreed on the concert shots in 'Havana'. When MTV came along this became the new norm hiw to shoot live acts. Why on earth it was decided that everyone needs to see various angles within 10 seconds is beyond me. I love lingering shots when you can really take someone in.
But I do want to day this re to 'Havana Moon' specifically: I loved it. I don't watch any of the new Stones live shots anymore. I do not like the Stones post 2000 because everything has become predictable; and the songs just are not good anymore. But I always check them out anyway. I loved HM because it was not a concert film. So much context, history, and culture were touched upon. By the time the band hits the stage there are wonderful crowd shots of people getting very emotional.

From what I recall of their latest concert films, I think the visuals have been alright (or better than previously). I like the idea of showing the interaction between the band and the audience. The same goes for many, different camera angles and the rushy change between them to tell as much as possible within a moment. It captures nicely the hectic nature of a Rolling Stones concert. I like the idea more of filming the event and its atmosphere than that of just trying capture the performance. HAVANA MOON comes to my mind especially.

I personally think that the technical development in capturing the event is about the only reason the latest films are worth of watching (at least once or twice as I do). Musically they tell the same old story we have known for some 30 years.

- Doxa

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Doxa
Musically they tell the same old story we have known for some 30 years.

At best

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crholmstrom
I finally watched "Havana Moon" this weekend. I had listened to it but had been hesitant about watching it. The performance is fine & it was a historic show. The reason I was hesitant was born out. This could be just me but the the way "Havana" & "Summer Sun" were filmed makes me crazy. The editing gives me a headache. Whoever is directing doesn't give the performance any room to breathe. For instance I would like to watch Keith (& the others) perform for more than 10 seconds at a time before cutting to the next shot. Slight exaggeration there but not really. Also, I felt there were waaaaay too many crowd shots in both films. People were excited, ok we get it. I want to watch the band, not the crowd. we don't need to be in the film at the level that is being presented. I want to watch the Stones not a bunch people my age & older hippy dancing & having group hugs!

I find these shows unwatchable for the same reason. Does the director have ADHD or something?

Even worse, I was actually at one of the Hyde Park shows - and whilst it was a great day out I've never been able to watch the concert film more than once. Its a mess. Lousy memento of a great week.

Ever since MTV's '5 second rule' (must edit every 5 seconds or less) in the mid 80's, concert videos went downhill and never fully recovered imo.

That isn't to to say there haven't been some well edited ones (Led Zeppelin's 'Celebration Day' and Jeff Lynne's ELO 'Wembley or Bust' come to mind).

In the 70's, seeing a concert film in the cinema with an audience was already a somewhat 'live' experience (especially with drinking and smoking going on), so the performance could stand on its own without too many camera tricks. With home viewing, quick editing and frequent crowd shots tend to add more 'excitement', when sitting on the couch alone or with a small group.

If you watch, say, Paul McCartney's Space Within Us (2005), filmed at Anaheim CA, you get the impression it's Beatlemania all over again, with many shots of an enthusiastic crowd and quick, swooping camera angles. If you watch the exact same show from a single static camera shot (as the bootleg does), it doesn't come off quite the same.

As for recent Stones videos, 'Live at the Fonda' and 'Havana Moon' are, well, respectable, and 'Sweet Summer Sun' tries to capture the epicness of the event, but put them next to 'Ladies & Gentlemen', or 'LA '75', despite quality issues, are superior and more accurate snapshots as it happened.

Glastonbury was pretty good, and captured the vibe very well ...It's a pity the politics to allow an official release of that couldn't have been sorted out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-07 16:43 by Spud.

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Stoneage
How hard can it be? A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

I do love that video - it's a superb representation of my favourite Bowie tour. I spoke to someone who was there once about how it was filmed and she told me that they selected certain fans to be right in front of Bowie's mike so that you had the Chinese girl for China Girl for example. Catching the globe at the right moment in Fame was also completely staged. That said they were real fans and they knew all the words. Same with the Glass Spider video from Sydney. The Reality tour video from Dublin however was completely natural with those at the front being there on a first come first served basis. I know that cos I was there.

Yep, Rebelrebel. I don't mind the staging bits. It's the end result that counts. The atmosphere that is created. And this is a very good one.

The should give an option on the dvd to have a single viewpoint/perspective - have a camera set up back at the soundboard that zooms in for closeups.
Or maybe a camera at the end of the catwalk with two lenses - once facing the stage and the other facing the back - they can switch occasionally, widen, zoom, etc.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Palace Revolution 2000
Agreed on the concert shots in 'Havana'. When MTV came along this became the new norm hiw to shoot live acts. Why on earth it was decided that everyone needs to see various angles within 10 seconds is beyond me. I love lingering shots when you can really take someone in.

Monkey Man from MSG PPV on FOUR FLICKS when Mick sings "But we love to play the blues" and it cuts to Keith just SMILING.

Best Stones live video edit/directing/whatever EVER.

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Palace Revolution 2000
Agreed on the concert shots in 'Havana'. When MTV came along this became the new norm hiw to shoot live acts. Why on earth it was decided that everyone needs to see various angles within 10 seconds is beyond me. I love lingering shots when you can really take someone in.

Fast cutting is a fallback when shooting a band without stage moves or visual dynamics in order to generate a little excitement. It's a cheap device, and not really necessary with the Stones. Their star presence manages to hold viewer interest even on the long takes.

Quick cuts don't have to be annoying. There are a lot of cuts during All Down The Line in Ladies and Gentlemen, [www.youtube.com] but every one feels organic to the performance, and not just cut-cut-cut to different shots to drum up something that isn't there. At one point in Shine A Light, there is a CU of Mick's face that cuts to another CU of Mick's face--basically the same shot, and for what?


The film Concert for George did a brilliant job of covering the action, and pacing the visuals to what you wanted to see at a given moment.

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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

Strange that you say that; I think the sound is awful on Serious Moonlight, sounds like it's buired under cotton. The footage is good, but the sound; not so. If you want to hear the 1983 tour in all it's glory, one has to go to the bootleg market.

there's a great serious moonlight show in the "loving the alien" box. hopefully they'll release it on its own.

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crholmstrom

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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

Strange that you say that; I think the sound is awful on Serious Moonlight, sounds like it's buired under cotton. The footage is good, but the sound; not so. If you want to hear the 1983 tour in all it's glory, one has to go to the bootleg market.

there's a great serious moonlight show in the "loving the alien" box. hopefully they'll release it on its own.

It will be released as a stand alone in mid Feb according to DB's Facebook page.

Watching Havana Moon right now....it is perhaps he worst show I be seen them do...so slow and off pace... terrible...

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mosthigh
Ever since MTV's '5 second rule' (must edit every 5 seconds or less) in the mid 80's, concert videos went downhill and never fully recovered imo.

That isn't to to say there haven't been some well edited ones (Led Zeppelin's 'Celebration Day' and Jeff Lynne's ELO 'Wembley or Bust' come to mind).

In the 70's, seeing a concert film in the cinema with an audience was already a somewhat 'live' experience (especially with drinking and smoking going on), so the performance could stand on its own without too many camera tricks. With home viewing, quick editing and frequent crowd shots tend to add more 'excitement', when sitting on the couch alone or with a small group.

If you watch, say, Paul McCartney's Space Within Us (2005), filmed at Anaheim CA, you get the impression it's Beatlemania all over again, with many shots of an enthusiastic crowd and quick, swooping camera angles. If you watch the exact same show from a single static camera shot (as the bootleg does), it doesn't come off quite the same.

As for recent Stones videos, 'Live at the Fonda' and 'Havana Moon' are, well, respectable, and 'Sweet Summer Sun' tries to capture the epicness of the event, but put them next to 'Ladies & Gentlemen', or 'LA '75', despite quality issues, are superior and more accurate snapshots as it happened.

Everyone was trying to do a feature length film in under 4 minutes; like watching a movie sped up by 30x.

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rebelrebel

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crholmstrom

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Erik_Snow

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Stoneage
A favourite of mine is Bowie's "Serious Moonlight" concert video from 1983. Sound, vision and the audience interaction with the band is on top. Look at that one and learn.

Strange that you say that; I think the sound is awful on Serious Moonlight, sounds like it's buired under cotton. The footage is good, but the sound; not so. If you want to hear the 1983 tour in all it's glory, one has to go to the bootleg market.

there's a great serious moonlight show in the "loving the alien" box. hopefully they'll release it on its own.

It will be released as a stand alone in mid Feb according to DB's Facebook page.

Awesome, thanks for the great news, I really want the Serious Moonlight CDs but don't want all the other stuff!

The five selected stand-alone albums from last year’s David Bowie: Loving the Alien (1983-1988) box set will be issued by Parlophone on 15th February.