I'm not a drummer, so I would appreciate any drummer's input on this. It seems that Charlie switched to the traditional grip in late 1967/early 1968.I think you can hear the difference in songs like 'Let's the spend the night together' and 'Child of the moon' for example. At the same time Keith began exploring open tunings and Mick explored voice colourings which eventually lead to that wonderful, hypnotic 'Stones groove'.Here are some comments by Charlie himself.So the question for you drummers is: 'To what extend was this drumming technique change crucial to the Stones sound since 1968?'

(Modern drummer Feb.1990)

"... I don't use that matched grip that
Ringo uses. I did for a few years, because I thought
it was popular. But then I was told to go back to the
other way by Ian Stewart, who used to set up my drums.
He virtually ordered me to go back to what he called
'the proper way of playing'" Charlie laughs. "So I
went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound.
"I've never consiously done it, but a lot of times
when we make a record I am consiously _not_ doing it,
because sometimes you hear the beat go 'di-dit,
di-dit'" Charlie says, tapping out notes that
areslightly squeezed together. "That works on some
things, but other times you need it perfectly even
because the microphone records everything in such a
nit-picky way".

I'm not a drummer but I don't think the change itself was crucial for the sound. The military grip looks cooler though and puts the Stones on a higher level than other rock bands. It connects the band with their roots in rhythm and blues, rock'n'roll and boogie woogie. Charlie himself is crucial for that connection.

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Bärs
I'm not a drummer but I don't think the change itself was crucial for the sound. The military grip looks cooler though and puts the Stones on a higher level than other rock bands. It connects the band with their roots in rhythm and blues, rock'n'roll and boogie woogie. Charlie himself is crucial for that connection.

I agreee 100%!

I'm no drummer either, but reading the interview and watching this clip from the 4 flicks DVD-set
(beyond praise), one can see what he means with "I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound". He hits the high-hat twice, and than lifts his right hand
to have the left hand smash the drum.





Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

The change with the hi hat was a crucial change in his sound, imo. The grip change in itself wasn't that big of a change.

I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

I'm not a drummer myself, but the drummers I've worked with say the opposite.

On the snare, Charlie is a pretty loud drummer.

That's true DandelionPowderman. In some other interview (I don't recall exactly) Charlie said that he is more a 'snare-drum' drummer and not a 'timpany' drummer like Ringo. He's not bashing Ringo or his technique, but he wants to point out the difference.

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

I'm not a drummer myself, but the drummers I've worked with say the opposite.

On the snare, Charlie is a pretty loud drummer.

"So I went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound." - Charli Watts

Ok, this might be hard to explain..sorry, - Snare may sound loud - it´s the only drum you hear when Charlie hits it - the other stick is out of the way and theres a break in hi-hat, - That's what makes Charlie so unique. The reason he does it, is to get more volume, cause the military grip technique is not a loud technique for rock n roll. You are using mainly wrists and not the whole arm. Other drummers who use the military gripon the snare - dont pull the other stick out of the way from hi-hat, for the snare to be loud. The don't do that, cause military grip is not that popular in rock n roll..it´s not loud technique, it's more popular in jazz.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-31 13:33 by seitan.

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seitan

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

I'm not a drummer myself, but the drummers I've worked with say the opposite.

On the snare, Charlie is a pretty loud drummer.

"So I went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound." - Charli Watts

Ok, this might be hard to explain..sorry, - Snare may sound loud - it´s the only drum you hear when Charlie hits it - the other stick is out of the way and theres a break in hi-hat, - That's what makes Charlie so unique. The reason he does it, is to get more volume, cause the military grip technique is not a loud technique for rock n roll. You are using mainly wrists and not the whole arm. Other drummers who use the military gripon the snare - dont pull the other stick out of the way from hi-hat, for the snare to be loud. The don't do that, cause military grip is not that popular in rock n roll..it´s not loud technique, it's more popular in jazz.

Sounds very reasonable, imo, too. Still, there is the neverending dispute of what makes the hardest hit; the whole arm punch or the perfect technical wrist shot

I think Charlie is one of the loudest drummers there is. He uses small explosive moves.

IIRC, Charlie didn't start skipping the hi-hat in the late 70s, early 80s, so I don't think that had has much influence on their Golden Era sound. But I do think that the traditional grip did, since it made him play with more swing.

Maybe it's like karate fast and quick

__________________________




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-31 14:44 by NICOS.

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

I'm not a drummer myself, but the drummers I've worked with say the opposite.

On the snare, Charlie is a pretty loud drummer.

"So I went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound." - Charli Watts

Ok, this might be hard to explain..sorry, - Snare may sound loud - it´s the only drum you hear when Charlie hits it - the other stick is out of the way and theres a break in hi-hat, - That's what makes Charlie so unique. The reason he does it, is to get more volume, cause the military grip technique is not a loud technique for rock n roll. You are using mainly wrists and not the whole arm. Other drummers who use the military gripon the snare - dont pull the other stick out of the way from hi-hat, for the snare to be loud. The don't do that, cause military grip is not that popular in rock n roll..it´s not loud technique, it's more popular in jazz.

Sounds very reasonable, imo, too. Still, there is the neverending dispute of what makes the hardest hit; the whole arm punch or the perfect technical wrist shot

Well, the way Charlie uses it is that he does rim shots about 99% of the time -and rim shots are the loudest possible hits on a snare. Also, after 10 years of playing like Charlie you should have sufficient technique to play the snare as loudly as with standard grip. It's a bit like that 100 pound professional boxer knocking down a 250 pound amateur boxer because he has mastered the technique.

The military grip is crucial for the Stones -Watts started missing the fourth on the hi-hatt around '69/'70, and became a much more swinging drummer from that point.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

I'm not a drummer myself, but the drummers I've worked with say the opposite.

On the snare, Charlie is a pretty loud drummer.

"So I went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound." - Charli Watts

Ok, this might be hard to explain..sorry, - Snare may sound loud - it´s the only drum you hear when Charlie hits it - the other stick is out of the way and theres a break in hi-hat, - That's what makes Charlie so unique. The reason he does it, is to get more volume, cause the military grip technique is not a loud technique for rock n roll. You are using mainly wrists and not the whole arm. Other drummers who use the military gripon the snare - dont pull the other stick out of the way from hi-hat, for the snare to be loud. The don't do that, cause military grip is not that popular in rock n roll..it´s not loud technique, it's more popular in jazz.

Sounds very reasonable, imo, too. Still, there is the neverending dispute of what makes the hardest hit; the whole arm punch or the perfect technical wrist shot

Well, the way Charlie uses it is that he does rim shots about 99% of the time -and rim shots are the loudest possible hits on a snare. Also, after 10 years of playing like Charlie you should have sufficient technique to play the snare as loudly as with standard grip. It's a bit like that 100 pound professional boxer knocking down a 250 pound amateur boxer because he has mastered the technique.

The military grip is crucial for the Stones -Watts started missing the fourth on the hi-hatt around '69/'70, and became a much more swinging drummer from that point.

Mathijs

+ 1

In 1969 he didn't skip the 4th beat on the high hat, at least not during Little Queenie.





Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

The 'lift' it clutch and DEFINITELY affected the Stones groove in a prolific manner. It is easiest to hear this work in albums like Emotional Rescue and Undercover...

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marcovandereijk
In 1969 he didn't skip the 4th beat on the high hat, at least not during Little Queenie.

That's why I said around '69. We've discussed this video before, and many people didn't see it then, but you see Charlie lifting his right hand before each stroke. Only, here he hits the hi-hat and the snare at the same time. This evolved into not hitting the hi-hat at the fourth. He indeed seems to do this subconsiencely -sometimes he hits the hihat at the fourth, sometimes he doesn't.

I wonder what the first track is where he really doesn't hit the hi-hat at the 4 no more. It must be something like Bitch.

Mathijs

I'm not a drummer, but there are few drummers you can recognize immediately like John Bonham, Ringo Starr, Jack Bruno, Mitch Mitchell, Simon Kirke, Keith Moon and last but not least CW.

I don't see it that Charlie swings more since he started omitting that hi-hat hit. Quite the opposite. what came with it was more of a sense of mechanical playing.
What I so love about Charlie's drumming right around '69 e.g is the extra contact the snare gets from the military grip; that bouncing, stuttering in between the major beats - that swings. This is one thing metal drummers do not fathom. It's implied.

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seitan
I guess the main difference is that with the military grip it´s much harder to get really loud sounding drums - and that´s one of the reasons why Don Was recorded Charlie´s drums in a stairway for the voodoo lounge album to get bigger echo from the stairway and a louder drum sound. Charlie Watts is not a loud drummer - but he's got great swingin groove on every song, it's not just bang bang...

This might be one of the reasons why heavy metal drummers dont swing. They just go bang, bang, bang - it might be louder when you use "normal grip" but with a military grip technique it´s easier to play quiet also.

It's like how Keith says: " We play real music, not Metal."

Dave Ghrol of Foo Fighters/Nirvana said that it was really difficult for him to play really quiet on Nirvana's MTV Unplugged sessions due to his technigue. It's a matter of musical taste anyway..

Interesting that Grohl would say that. I always thought he overplayed, but that loudness was needed in Nirvana. Hard to pull back from that style to play quieter.

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Palace Revolution 2000
I don't see it that Charlie swings more since he started omitting that hi-hat hit. Quite the opposite. what came with it was more of a sense of mechanical playing.

i agree. watch them do "rock me baby" and charlie is stiff as a board. i really hope they don't do a blues album.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-31 18:20 by ineedadrink.

oops. double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-31 18:20 by ineedadrink.

According to Keith (Life), Charlie uses a special motion when hitting the snare drum (on the second time and the presumably on the fourth) : he hits the hi-hat very right on the time, then hits after a very small delay the snare drum - it is still on the same time, but a little bit after

Keith explains this very tiny delay is the reason of the swinging sound of Charlie, and also that is very exhausting to perform - he hits the same time twice, but not exactly at the same moment

Quite difficult to explain when you have not the book with you.

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Mathijs

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marcovandereijk
In 1969 he didn't skip the 4th beat on the high hat, at least not during Little Queenie.

That's why I said around '69. We've discussed this video before, and many people didn't see it then, but you see Charlie lifting his right hand before each stroke. Only, here he hits the hi-hat and the snare at the same time. This evolved into not hitting the hi-hat at the fourth. He indeed seems to do this subconsiencely -sometimes he hits the hihat at the fourth, sometimes he doesn't.

I wonder what the first track is where he really doesn't hit the hi-hat at the 4 no more. It must be something like Bitch.

Mathijs

He plays hi-hat on all four on the studiorecording of Bitch. I guess he started doing it live around that time, but it isn't until Some Girls you can hear it consistently through songs in the studio recordings.

[www.reverbnation.com]

I use military or traditional grip myself instead of mathched.
Charlie lifts the right hand off of the hi-hats on both the 2 and 4.
Each time he hits the snare.

I've played matched some and to me it works better for loud bashing.
Traidtional works better for me because I get better bounce and
it gets for playing something other than just a single beat on
two and four.

Lately I find myself pulling off the hi hat on 2 and 4 and it does seem
to isolate the snare from the hi hat more effectively.

To me, pulling off on 2 and 4 seems to add emphasis on songs like
Honky Tonk Women. Notice how the guitar doesn't just go chunk on
each beat. There's that little hestitation?

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Marv

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

3 drummers playing the same beat. The last break is for Charlie, the right guy at the right time...

The first video proof I've seen of Charlie playing like today is from 1975. I also think that his playing became really loud on LYL. During 1972-73 he basically played like LQ 1969.

Hard to tell but I think here he pulls off. I did paste the shortcut of the tumbling dice montreux rehearsals(1972). Don't know how to paste the actual clip.