Does anyone know how much footage the Maysles brothers shot at Madison Square Garden and Altamont? Recently two hours of DA Pennebaker's brilliant outtakes from Dylan's 1965 British tour turned up on bootleg, rescued from the cutting room floor as it were so why can't the same be done with classic Stones footage.

The Maysles must have shot a lot more film at MSG/Altamont than was actually used for Gimme Shelter but what has happened to it? The three outtakes on the Gimme Shelter DVD are a tantalising teaser for what else may lurk in the Maysles archives.

It also beggars the question what happened to Robert Frank's extra CS Blues footage not used in the film. Has this ever been seen by any fans?

While the Stones are one of the best served bands when it comes to historic performances preserved on video/DVD there must still be some gems gathering dust such as the amazing Sympathy For The Devil film from the David Frost show in 68 which I saw at a mate's house few years ago.

There is all of the above out there. Unfortunately, ABKCO slammed the door on the bonus tracks from Gimme Shelter...LOTS and Lots of it. I have seen some of them, and they are spectacular. Owner cant trade it, though. As far as the CS blues stuff, there exists at least 12 reels of it. Again, cant be traded.
The David Frost stuff exists, too, but again, people who have it, keep it close to the vest. Havent seen any outtakes from 1+1, but likely lots of that exists, too.

So sorry to be the bearer of bad news. All we can do is hope.

JR

PS West Palm Beach was filmed, though not sure how much, as there is a scene from it in Gimme Shelter, but due to cold weather, the performance was ragged as the guitars wouldnt stay in tune.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-05 17:48 by stone-relics.

Relics - I wonder if it really was ABKCO who "slammed" the door or someone else
not wanting a certain former Guitarist to be seen as he was laying down those
"famous" leads in: Symp. for the Devil from NY - 1969 ?????

It's so convenent to point the finger at A. Klein & ABKCO when "certain" videos
aren't released but so many others are that ABKCO has rights to????

Pretty "fishy" to me...

MLC

You could be right, but I dont think the Stones would have cared if the other songs got out or not--as so much of that version of the band is displayed (spectacularly), but from what I heard, and its relatively close to the source, the Maysles had gotten together about ten of the outtakes, but ABKCo nixed everything with a Jagger / Richards song writing credit(just speculation here, but maybe ABKCO wants to put them out later). Unfortunately, no complete versions of Sympathy or the Rambler exist, as the film reels were too short to capture anything over five minutes long. And it was just the Maysles filming, with no support. Those songs are lost forever. Altamont, on the other hand, they had tons of cameramen, so all of that show, SHOULD exist. Dont know, as the only outs I have seen are from the MSG shows. Private footage exists of all three MSG shows, as well, all silent, but audience tapes were also made from all three nights, but only two circulate. Been trying for years to get that missing one.

JR

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is all of the above out there.
> Unfortunately, ABKCO slammed the door on the bonus
> tracks from Gimme Shelter...LOTS and Lots of it.
> I have seen some of them, and they are
> spectacular. Owner cant trade it, though. As far
> as the CS blues stuff, there exists at least 12
> reels of it. Again, cant be traded.
> The David Frost stuff exists, too, but again,
> people who have it, keep it close to the vest.
> Havent seen any outtakes from 1+1, but likely lots
> of that exists, too.
>
> So sorry to be the bearer of bad news. All we can
> do is hope.
>
> JR
>
> PS West Palm Beach was filmed, though not sure
> how much, as there is a scene from it in Gimme
> Shelter, but due to cold weather, the performance
> was ragged as the guitars wouldnt stay in tune.


Cheers for the info. It's great to keep up with what's out there. Dylan fans have been so lucky recently with the No Direction Home film, the Don't Look Back official box and the outtakes, and the five songs from the Isle of Wight 69. It's getting harder to track down really rare Stones archive footage. Makes me wonder what happened to Peter White's outtakes from the Albert Hall concert in 66 that resulted in the Have You Seen Your Mother Baby promo.

Hard to tell...about the archival stuff...a lot of people didnt save the outs, and when people say the stuff "ended up on the cutting room floor" may be correct. I know that all the shows in Texas on the 72 tour (both Houstons and Fort worths), but no one knows what happened to that. There was talk about a special project on that, but it fell through the cracks....that footage may be lost, too. And thats a SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!
Again, sorry for the bad news.

JR

Hey relics - it's been stated that the Philly show from 1972 was filmed!!
which was to be the live album of 1972 that so called: Live Decca album.

Man I hope the Stones still have that footage in the can!!! and some of the
1973 tour? any knowledge on those points??

MLC

I have a book called " The complete recording guide to the Rolling Stones" by James Karnbach and Carol Bernson.
In the section regarding Gimme Shelter is sais:

The Maysles brothers made their own cut of the film, which includes some songs not in the 90 minute commercial release. David and Albert's version includes "Prodigal Son", "You Gotta Move" and "Midnight Rambler". Keith rolls ajoint during the last one. Unfortunatley, the Maysles' original print and its seperate mag track have been lost, stolen or otherwise removed from their owners' control, and have never been located despite many efforts to do so over the years.
Happily, the original negatives all exist and are quite secure and intact.

Jeez everything is not some conspiracy against Mick Taylor...

When have the stones dug out bonus songs of any of their older stuff..

I hope whoever has this material doesn't take it to his or her grave. Sucks when people sit on things like this!

Hi MCDDTLC,

There is some fan footage of the band outside their hotel in Holland in 73 and of course the now complete Street Fighting Man from Frankfurt in 73. The most hilarious interview the band ever gave is from Holland Oct 12 73 when MJ, MT and KR were interviewed by Dutch presenter Elly De Waard.
The German TV station SWF3 filmed the band playing Brown Sugar and Star Star and interviewed MJ. That was transmitted on Sept 3. This was rebroadcast on Jan 22 2000 but to my knowledge has not turned up on any DVD boots yet.
Apparently, legend has it that a private film without sound was shot at one of the four Wembley Empire Pool gigs.

H-Dog, conspiracy or not for some reason none of the videos that features
Taylor performing some of his better work with the Stones has been released?

Why?? all of 1972,73 - SFTD from 1969 and all the other songs get released
with the exception of: Satisfaction, longest Taylor lead ever released from
his gig with the Stones.

That TV show in 1973 when Goats Head Soup was released;

Dancing with Mr. D, slow version of Angie, Silver Train (let him do a little slide) It's only Rock&Roll (goofy stunt with bubbles)
very little Taylor in the spotlight!!

No Hide Your Love, no Winter, 100 Years Ago, etc...

guess that just the way it when huh???

MLC

Thanks Dagger,

Here's hoping that the Glimmer Twins have some Video in the can and get the
bug to release it like Led Zep did with their historical DVD...

Maybe when they hear how much money they can make it will move them...

One can only hope - MLC

>> Peter White's outtakes from the Albert Hall concert in 66 <<

Peter Whitehead

"No Hide Your Love, no Winter, 100 Years Ago, etc... "

Well first off those songs were not played live, 100 Years Ago was a few times. But why does this have to be again about Taylor. The Stones didn't release any concert videos in the 70s, with Ronnie or Taylor. What about Brian's best years, there is no footage of that.

H-Dog Number one I wouldn't put Brian & Taylor in the same catagory...

Taylor was picked up to deliver what he did, a 1st rate guitar behind Jagger's
vocals and something "special" live which is what they needed to compete in
those days ( Late 60's - early 70's)

The one song on Ya's Ya's that made everyone sit up and take notice was: SFTD
and Taylor's leads was what everyone was talking about, back-then.

Plus Stray Cat Blues got alot of notice.

The Stones stopped being this kind of a musical force when Ronnie joined,
yeah they made alot of money and lot's of people when to the concerts but
musically, the Taylor years were the Stones at their musical best - IMO and
a few others (Beelyboy, Open G, to name a few who agree)

And YES, Winter & Hide Your Love, were not played live, WHY NOT???
they were only the best cuts on the album...

Then Tumblin Dice is the single from Exile, why not: Shine a Light?
0 - no, were not going to feature Mick Taylor...

The ONLY time you got to see Taylor do his thing was "live", with the exception
of: Ladies & Gentelman when it came to the theaters, but that was like seeing
the Stones live anyway... you couldn't take it home with you and you still can't - MLC

MCDDTLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> H-Dog Number one I wouldn't put Brian & Taylor in
> the same catagory...

Well they were both guitarists in the same band and one replaced the other so its very common for them to be talked about together, no matter how you swing it.

> Taylor was picked up to deliver what he did, a 1st
> rate guitar behind Jagger's
> vocals and something "special" live which is what
> they needed to compete in
> those days ( Late 60's - early 70's)

If I had a dollar for every time you have written this on this message board, I'd be able to afford my next Stones show.. ha ha

> The one song on Ya's Ya's that made everyone sit
> up and take notice was: SFTD
> and Taylor's leads was what everyone was talking
> about, back-then.
> Plus Stray Cat Blues got alot of notice.

So what's your point, they included both of these on their live album, they weren't trying to hide Taylor's contributions.

> The Stones stopped being this kind of a musical
> force when Ronnie joined,
> yeah they made alot of money and lot's of people
> when to the concerts but
> musically, the Taylor years were the Stones at
> their musical best - IMO and
> a few others (Beelyboy, Open G, to name a few who
> agree)
>
> And YES, Winter & Hide Your Love, were not played
> live, WHY NOT??? they were only the best cuts on the album...

So why did you use these songs as examples when we are talking about the Stones not showing live footage of the band during these years. And bands usually perform whatever single they just released... Angie and Heartbreaker.. its a matter of opinion if you think something like Hide Your Love is better.

> Then Tumblin Dice is the single from Exile, why
> not: Shine a Light?
> 0 - no, were not going to feature Mick Taylor...

Come on, Tumblin Dice had single written all over it. I hope you are not serious.

> The ONLY time you got to see Taylor do his thing
> was "live", with the exception
> of: Ladies & Gentelman when it came to the
> theaters...

You can also say the only time you got to see any of the other Stones during this period is if you watch this movie. Bands weren't releasing video packages like they are today.

You don't have to convince me to like Taylor, I have been a fan for years.

Hi Stone-Relics,
"BKCO slammed the door on the bonus tracks from Gimme Shelter...LOTS and Lots of it. I have seen some of them, and they are spectacular."
Very interesting, can you give some more info on exactly what else you saw.

Silver Dagger,
"akes me wonder what happened to Peter White's outtakes from the Albert Hall concert in 66 that resulted in the Have You Seen Your Mother Baby promo."

Peter Whitehead told me that Klein had a van turn up and collect all his Stones material including outtakes from Charlie Is My Darling & the 60's promos he shot & presumably also the Albert Hall stuff.

Hound Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeez everything is not some conspiracy against
> Mick Taylor...
>
> When have the stones dug out bonus songs of any of
> their older stuff..
>
> I hope whoever has this material doesn't take it
> to his or her grave. Sucks when people sit on
> things like this!


Speaking of the grave, will Klein's estate/heirs have all of his rights to the Stones music or will they transfer back to the Stones?

Anyone seen the contracts (ha ha) or know how this will work?


Plexiglass

Someone told me that Klein's son who's been groomed to take over the business (& to be similarly ruthless) will maintain the rights to the Stones music but this is just hearsay.

interesting when you "wikipedia" allen klein on google....interesting read...he certainly po'ed a lot of people...WOW!

H-dog, sounds like were both Taylor fans (to a point)

Brian vs Taylor - guitarists in the same band, different times..

to me it's just like Ford's & Ferrari's are cars, but one will get a different
reaction out of people who compare them.

My line on Taylor's inclusion needs to be heard, often to "inform" the younger
Stones fans who don't know who he is/was..

My point about SFTD / 1969 is that they have that footage (video) and talked
about including it as a bonus track on the last release of: Gimme shelter, but
again, not included when other Jagger/Richards tunes were...???
(just giving people examples of keeping Taylor's best efforts under wraps)

My comments about Winter, Hide Your Love, 100 years ago are more examples of
Taylor featured numbers that only surfaced on albums, Jagger hogging the
spotlight on that Video they did in 1973. Angie, Dancin with Mr. D. IORR
you think those last three compare with the (3) I listed?? and your a Taylor
fan??

And I'm very serious about Tumblin Dice which was a letdown to alot of Stones fans when it was released! We just had Sticky Fingers, where everyone was
talking about: Brown Sugar, SWAY!!!!!! Can't you Heard mr knockin, Moonlight
Mile - and everyone was talking about what a influence Taylor was adding to
the Stones!!! Sticky Fingers blew everyone away, Exile wasn't that well received when it first came out, by the way...

MLC

>> other Jagger/Richards tunes were <<

what "other Jagger/Richards tunes" were included in the bonus tracks on the re-release??
the bonus tracks are Carol, Prodigal Son & Little Queenie
(just giving people examples of ... ahem, never mind!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-05 22:10 by with sssoul.

SSSoul - I'm just bringing up the point of certain Jagger/Richards written
tunes surfaced in Gimme shelter, weither they were in the movie or "Bonus Tracks.

So "arrangements" were worked out with Allen Klein & Co. for the tunes certain
members wanted in the movie??? But SFTD couldn't be included??? I wonder

MLC

oh i see: when you wrote "they have that footage (video) and talked about including it as a bonus track
on the last release of Gimme shelter, but again, not included when other Jagger/Richards tunes were"
you weren't talking about bonus tracks included on the last release of Gimme Shelter - that makes sense!

but meanwhile: if we're talking about the original film, SftD is in Gimme Shelter -
i suppose the Hells Angels interrupting it repeatedly was part of the "anti-Taylor conspiracy" :E

as for the MSG SftD, someone's already pointed out:
>> Unfortunately, no complete versions of Sympathy or the Rambler exist [from the MSG shows],
as the film reels were too short to capture anything over five minutes long. <<

i'd ask what the source of this supposed "anti-Taylor conspiracy" in 1970 would have been -
and, if it existed, how it happened that any of the cat's playing made it onto Ya Yas -
but i wouldn't be able to follow the argument anyway, i'm sure, so ... forget it! :E

ps: >> The one song on Ya's Ya's that made everyone sit up and take notice was SFTD
and Taylor's leads was what everyone was talking about, back-then. <<

uhh ... wrong. "everyone" had our own reactions to the album, back then
just like we do now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-05 23:50 by with sssoul.

MLC wrote:

>it's been stated that the Philly show from 1972 was filmed!!
>which was to be the live album of 1972 that so called: Live Decca album.
>Man I hope the Stones still have that footage in the can!!! and some of the
>1973 tour? any knowledge on those points??

I have heard that too, but never had any verification....be nice though, as I love those Phili shows, too....but really no bad shows from 72, other than the first couple, and I shine those on to "
first Night Jitters", pun intended....anyway, will keep you posted if anything shocking turns up...I just wish Rolie would get back to us on the L& G stuff....

JR

Well soul - speaking about SFTD in Gimme Shelter, interesting that all of Keith's lead parts are included in the film BUT Taylor's get cut out??

This stuff about only 5 minutes worth of songs due to film reels length wasn't mentioned by Jagger when he talked about it almost made it in as: Bonus track

He stated that they wanted to include: SFTD from MSG/69 - but Klein & co nixed
it. I'm sure you are buying that story...

And I wasn't "wrong" about Stone fans reactions when Ya's Ya's came out!
the one song on everyones record player at the parties that I went to, back then
was SFTD!!! And there was lot's of comments about what a job Taylor was doing
on guitar for the Stones, downplay it if you want, but I know the truth..

MLC

how many have bough the great new edition of gimme shelter ? with the bonus trax)?

and the new hyde park ?(i haven't got the new hyde park,)have not seen it yet.

The real tradegy here is because of legal hassles and no little acrimony lots of great unseen live footage and recordings are sitting in vault gathering dust and no one (or very few) gets to enjoy seeing and hearing it. What a @#$%& shame!

yes don't forget the rock and roll cirkus,,,,,,

Vancover - What we want to see is Video from the 1972 or 73 tours!!!!!

MLC