So is it really a 12 string ?

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Kingbeebuzz
So is it really a 12 string ?

Check out video for more info: [youtu.be]

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Kingbeebuzz
Wikipedia states that on Its All Over Now, Brian Jones played a 12 string electric guitar.
I have never heard of this before.
My original 7” single, bought in 1964, does not sound like a 12 string to me.
Surely it is not a 12 string?
On the TAMI show Brian used a 6 string.
On Joe Loss BBC Radio Show he used a 6 string.

Is Wikipedia entry wrong?

Brian did use a 12 string on the studio recording. He also used one for the Joe Loss Pop Show. Additionally he used one when the band mimed to IAON on atleast 4 occasions in June to July 1964.

People expect jingle jangle from a 12, but Brian used it in a more choppy and raw way. The octaves heard in the little lick he plays gives it away that it's a 12 string.

He played much same parts in studio and live. TAMI show is missing the octave chime when he plays the lick and sounds more fatter and lower when compared to the studio recording.

Here is a guitar cover I did to enable people to hear an approximation of what Brian played.

[youtu.be]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-02 00:42 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty



Here is a guitar cover I did to enable people to hear an approximation of what Brian played.

[youtu.be]

Very enlightening.

Great analysis, HM!

On some of the lousy mid-80s ABKCO CDs guitar parts of Brian and Keith are heard "separately". The worst example is Get Off Of My Cloud.
The way we grew up with the Stones was this subtle mix of the guitars by both, which gave that unique flavor to the songs. Those mid-80s CDs were in part a big disappointment. Luckily they made up for it with the SACDs in the early part of this Millennium ...
Happy New Year!

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Kingbeebuzz

On the TAMI show Brian used a 6 string.
On Joe Loss BBC Radio Show he used a 6 string.

Is Wikipedia entry wrong?

p
I always thought the on the TAMI Show the Rolling Stones performed to a pre-recorded instrumental tape with only Mick Jagger singing live. It could be the same on the Joe Loss Show but I know nothing about it.

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saltoftheearth

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Kingbeebuzz

On the TAMI show Brian used a 6 string.
On Joe Loss BBC Radio Show he used a 6 string.

Is Wikipedia entry wrong?

p
I always thought the on the TAMI Show the Rolling Stones performed to a pre-recorded instrumental tape with only Mick Jagger singing live. It could be the same on the Joe Loss Show but I know nothing about it.

Totally live on both.

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georgie48
Great analysis, HM!

On some of the lousy mid-80s ABKCO CDs guitar parts of Brian and Keith are heard "separately". The worst example is Get Off Of My Cloud.
The way we grew up with the Stones was this subtle mix of the guitars by both, which gave that unique flavor to the songs. Those mid-80s CDs were in part a big disappointment. Luckily they made up for it with the SACDs in the early part of this Millennium ...
Happy New Year!

Thanks.

Although they are an odd listen, those stereo mixes are very helpful for working out guitar parts etc and letting you hear things in isolation.

Thank you to His Majesty and Dandelion Powderman for the info on the 12 string.

I was wrong......I've been listening to this great track since 1964 and never knew it was a 12 string electric. Over 50 years !!!

So thank you both for the info..........I learn something new every day !!!

I am now going to get my hearing tested.

This song shows what a great guitarist he was.Not just a great slide player buta great sense of rhythm

When it came to music, I don't think Brian had a flaw. An amazing instrumentalist with a faculty for seemingly any instrument. Equally important, he was a highly inventive arranger. Jagger and Richards were never better than when Brian was firing on all cylinders and they trusted him to elevate their material.

<Jagger and Richards were never better than when Brian was firing on all cylinders and they trusted him to elevate their material>

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Rocky Dijon
When it came to music, I don't think Brian had a flaw. An amazing instrumentalist with a faculty for seemingly any instrument. Equally important, he was a highly inventive arranger. Jagger and Richards were never better than when Brian was firing on all cylinders and they trusted him to elevate their material.

.I would have loved to have heard what he could have done with present day recording advances and synthesizers.He was able to do great things with mellotron,which are really hard to play.Those people who say he wasn’t a great lead guitarist who could play blazing fast like John McLaughlin miss the fact he was a great rhythm guitarist

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Taylor1

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Rocky Dijon
When it came to music, I don't think Brian had a flaw. An amazing instrumentalist with a faculty for seemingly any instrument. Equally important, he was a highly inventive arranger. Jagger and Richards were never better than when Brian was firing on all cylinders and they trusted him to elevate their material.

.I would have loved to have heard what he could have done with present day recording advances and synthesizers.He was able to do great things with mellotron,which are really hard to play.Those people who say he wasn’t a great lead guitarist who could play blazing fast like John McLaughlin miss the fact he was a great rhythm guitarist

Well, I find him a great musician, but a very limited and mediocre guitarist.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

Well, I find him a great musician, but a very limited and mediocre guitarist.

Mathijs

Yet, still better than you.

Before "Satisfaction," Brian played terrific guitar and he and Keith blended very well. Mick and Keith learned quite a few tricks from him on both guitar and harmonica. Once Keith established himself as the guy writing riffs, they never clicked as guitarists the same way.

I suspect the problem lay with both their egos. Keith was never going to let a situation like "The Last Time" happen again where Brian was given the riff Keith wrote. One can hardly fault him for that. Keith writing songs that were hits galvanized Brian into competing by interpreting those riffs and licks on other instruments. It was a sense of competition that worked beautifully for the band until Anita going to Keith created an imbalance Brian could not recover from.

From that point on, Brian was more fragile and Mick and Keith were more closed in their dealings with him. By the end, he seemed like an idea man who they listened to once in awhile and then asked Jimmy Miller to get a sideman to execute the idea. Perhaps a simplification of the situation, but it's how I see it.

Its All Over Now was recorded on 10th June 1964 in USA.

Stones Gear book states that the Vox 6 and 12 string guitars were not given to the Stones until early July 1964 after they returned to England.

So..........was it recorded with a Vox ? or some other 12 string lying around the studio.

Also, although Brian mimed on TV with a 12 string Vox, is there any evidence that he ever played Its All Over Now live using a 12 string ?

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Kingbeebuzz
Its All Over Now was recorded on 10th June 1964 in USA.

Stones Gear book states that the Vox 6 and 12 string guitars were not given to the Stones until early July 1964 after they returned to England.

So..........was it recorded with a Vox ? or some other 12 string lying around the studio.

Also, although Brian mimed on TV with a 12 string Vox, is there any evidence that he ever played Its All Over Now live using a 12 string ?

Brian is shown with a Vox 12 string in June.

He used a Vox 12 for The Joe Loss Pop Show.

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Rocky Dijon
Keith was never going to let a situation like "The Last Time" happen again where Brian was given the riff Keith wrote.

Brian wrote and played The Last Time riff. He was not 'given the riff'.

[youtu.be]

Thanks, your majesty. Glad to know we can add a Brian Jones wing next to the Mick Taylor Hall of Shame for people who wrote Stones riffs and then did nothing when the label read Jagger-Richards. Apparently a requirement for being in the band was to be a spineless idiot willing to be repeatedly taken advantage of by Jagger and Richards.

Brian is somewhat down in the mix but you can hear what HM very capably demonstrated: [www.youtube.com]

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bleedingman
Brian is somewhat down in the mix but you can hear what HM very capably demonstrated: [www.youtube.com]

Full show here.
[youtu.be]

Note Mick mentions Brian changing guitars after IAON and then they play If You Need Me with Brian playing 6 string guitar.

Brian had both his 6 and 12 string Vox guitars with him and also his Gretsch.

One of the 6's was probably tuned to open G for I Can't Be Satisfied which they, along with other songs, also recorded for Top Gear on this day.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-04 21:38 by His Majesty.

...this track made me realise ,56 years ago ,how great they were....

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georgie48
Great analysis, HM!

On some of the lousy mid-80s ABKCO CDs guitar parts of Brian and Keith are heard "separately". The worst example is Get Off Of My Cloud.
The way we grew up with the Stones was this subtle mix of the guitars by both, which gave that unique flavor to the songs. Those mid-80s CDs were in part a big disappointment. Luckily they made up for it with the SACDs in the early part of this Millennium ...
Happy New Year!

Hey Georgie48, that wasn't mid 80s ABKC0, that was the original London Hot Rocks CD from 85, mastered by Mobile Fidelity. As far as I know, the only CD that has stereo versions of Play With Fire, Satisfaction and Cloud, the last two being "wide" stereo. Satisfaction you can clearly hear Brian's acoustic guitar as well as Stu's piano playing. They do sound weird listening to them on a stereo. Also has wide stereo version of Mother's Little Helper. 2002 hybrids have stereo MLH as well as a very faint stereo version of Satisfaction where the acoustic guitar sounds a bit stereo but Stu's piano is inaudible.

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Rocky Dijon
Glad to know we can add a Brian Jones wing next to the Mick Taylor Hall of Shame for people who wrote Stones riffs and then did nothing when the label read Jagger-Richards. Apparently a requirement for being in the band was to be a spineless idiot willing to be repeatedly taken advantage of by Jagger and Richards.

+1

Agree with Springsteen
my fav and one of the greatest KRichard solo ..pure electric discharge

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fela
Agree with Springsteen
my fav and one of the greatest KRichard solo ..pure electric discharge

John Lennon found it very bad and made fun of him...

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jp.M

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fela
Agree with Springsteen
my fav and one of the greatest KRichard solo ..pure electric discharge

John Lennon found it very bad and made fun of him...

Supposedly. Read Life again and you'll see it wasn't actually said to him by John. It's an un unamed person told me John said this.

A tall story? Who knows, but it has been good fodder for book promotion, reviews and forums.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-05 01:25 by His Majesty.

new "official visualizer"





i think this one maybe more appropriate for shattered

Some of the visuals are better, like 1960's band pictures, and there's even a London Record Label. But lava lamps at this time?