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OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Toxic34 ()
Date: May 16, 2016 01:11

Lately throughout the Internet, there is a growing backlash against Aerosmith post-Permanent Vacation, crucifying them for their continued use of outside collaborators for writing and production. The growing consensus is that "Done With Mirrors should've been the REAL comeback album, because the Toxic Twins wrote all the songs by themselves! @#$%& corporate interests sabotaging them! People just don't like authenticity anymore!" This has grown into an absolute chorus of disapproval, guided thanks to people like Eddie Trunk, especially in light of Steven Tyler's recent solo exploits with his forthcoming country album. But this hatred is in many ways misplaced. Here's why.

As per Joe Perry in his autobiography Rocks, Done With Mirrors was done perfunctorily and uneasily. The band hadn't yet made its push towards sobriety, he and Steven simply weren't writing together, and that album relied largely on old songs that had been written years before and had no significant changes to them, especially the version of "Let The Music Do The Talking." Their new label, Geffen Records, helped encourage them to pursue Van Halen producer Ted Templeman, thinking he would be their savior, when it was clear he was a hands-off man and that Van Halen's alchemy was the work of the band and not in any way by the producer. Needless the say, despite the success of the Back In The Saddle Tour and the tour for this album, the comeback wasn't truly legitimate in the eyes of many, especially because the album simply wasn't all that good. Joe and the others knew something had to be done. First off, they made their strides to get clean. Next, Geffen's new A&R man, John Kalodner, keyed them to the recent success of Bon Jovi's Slippery When Wet, and got them in touch with the producer and co-writer behind that mammoth hit, Desmond Child. They all agreed that new blood would give the band a badly needed shot in the arm, especially with gently massaging the songs for mass consumption and working to make world-class visuals to appeal to MTV viewers.

The strategy of course worked, and was still implemented in followups Pump and Get A Grip. However, the band still did not slack off in their part with fashioning the songs and conceiving them, showing they were still just as important in the process. The only real problems were that Steven's longtime difficulty in pounding out lyrics at a sufficient rate seemed to get worse, and his beginning to close Joe out of writing certain songs and working solely with collaborators, such as in songs like "Angel." Also, certain songs that would've fit the Aerosmith aesthetic, like the legendary and never-heard "Black Cherry" were being kept off due to label executives' concerned. And then of course there was the growing problems caused by their manager Tim Collins, fond of triangulation and mind games to manipulate the band and cause unnecessary tension, even with simple things like the $30 million deal the band signed with Sony to return to original label Columbia.

When the Sony deal took effect with the release of Nine Lives in 1997, it was hugely successful. Of course, these days, reaction has soured, referring to it as "overly polished, overlabored and embarrassing in its attempts to be hip and trendy." Of course, these reviews are often given without considering the original version of the album recorded at Criteria Studios in Miami with Alanis Morrisette producer Glen Ballard at the helm. Joey Kramer was suffering from depression and had to seek treatment (and this also was used in Collins' triangulation games), and Average White Band/Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers drummer Steve Ferrone was brought to lay the drum tracks. In addition, Ballard was so enthused with digital audio, especially ADAT (using 8 machines) to bring the total to 128 tracks, with track sheets for one song filling out an entire binder. Sony executives sensed that this version wouldn't fit as an Aerosmith album, and despite Steven's objections, the album had to be re-recorded. After the famous Crisis Resolution Weekend that resulted in Tim Collins being fired, the band, with Joey back in tow, decamped to Avatar Studios with Kevin "Caveman" Shirley to record a more raw, visceral album live in the studio on a 24-track analog machine. As per Joe, "it was the exact same songs, just without the endless overdubs and with more grit." Of course, people like Eddie Trunk won't say that these days, calling it an overly polished and "commercial" album, straitjacketed by someone else's vision. And of course there is the whipping boy that "I Don't Wanna Miss A Thing." Though the movie it appeared in is pure garbage, the song is not. It certainly rocks harder than other movie soundtrack ballads of the time, though all are still good. Joe has had nothing but praise for the song and for Diane Warren for writing it. In fact, her contribution to Music From Another Dimension is the only ballad Joe considers worthy on that album.

Such despised comments about Nine Lives are clearly not remotely true, but they can legitimately be (and are) said about the album's immediate successor, 2001's Just Push Play. Because Steven has had a history of knockdown dragout arguments with producers and vowing never to work with them again, Joe suggested that this album be self-produced and done at his home studio, the Boneyard. Steven was enthused, and collaborators Marti Frederiksen and Mark Hudson were brought on as engineers, though they ended up co-producers and co-writers. Joe was quite skeptical of them taking this big a role, especially when songs were written down, and the band was made to lay down their individual parts one at a time, exactly as written. Joe argued in favor of live playing and spontaneity, but was outvoted. Joey didn't like the drum sound at the Boneyard and wanted control of his sonics in another studio, adding to the frustration. In addition, Frederiksen and Hudson began leaving Joe out of the loop to work exclusively with Steven, especially in the case of the lead single "Jaded", which was written while Joe was away for the weekend, and in violation of a promise to call him up if any new songs were started. Much of the marketing, like the album cover and press conferences with dancing robots, were the product of Sony's committees, led by Steven's ideas. Despite Joe's disagreement, they went ahead anyways. Needless to say, Joe has disowned the album as "a lesson in how NOT to make a record," though he admits there are still some very good songs on there, including ones that should be played more often, such as "Beyond Beautiful." Recording for followup material went smoother, especially with Jack Douglas back at the helm.

The point I'm making is that Aerosmith songs and albums do not automatically become less valid for outside collaborators. It doesn't matter if anyone added lines or a new sonic texture, it's still an Aerosmith song, because the basic sound has never changed. Steven's sandpaper yelp, Joe and Brad Whitford's solid riffs and freewheeling abandon in solos, Tom Hamilton's dependable bass lines, and Joey's pounding, all are present. The fact that the entire band says as much should be clear evidence that there is nothing inherently wrong with the process. With the exception of Steven's procrastinating with lyrics and not treating his partnership with Joe like such, there is no slacking off or laziness by the band. They still make the riffs, the melodies, and the structure of the song, and there would be no songs without them. For those who still cling to this material as too "commercial", keep this in mind: all artists make music in the hopes to sell it, even those who don't focus on the money as much. Therefore, all music and all albums, even those from the '70s heyday, are commercial. All music is simultaneously product and art at the same time. Of course, there's good and bad product, and good and bad art, but with Aerosmith, it's been overwhelmingly good. Even the worst album, Rock In A Hard Place, has some nuggets of gold.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Wild Slivovitz ()
Date: May 16, 2016 02:11

"Rock In A Hard Place" is much better than any release of theirs since "Nine Lives".

Their latest record is better than the preceding two or three ones, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-05-16 11:41 by Wild Slivovitz.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: strat72 ()
Date: May 16, 2016 04:57

I really liked Pump and Get A Grip, Nine Lives is decent......... I don't have a problem with them using other writers, and although I love both records, the problem for me with both Pump and Get a Grip is that they are over produced! If Jack Douglss had produced those records, they would have been up there with Rocks and Toys In The Attic!

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 16, 2016 11:38

I like the other writers on Honkin' With Bobo best...

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: LieB ()
Date: May 16, 2016 12:59

Interesting post, Toxic34. It reads a bit like a magazine article. Did you write it exclusively for this thread?

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: pepganzo ()
Date: May 16, 2016 13:07

I've got all Aerosmith album and I don't think that they ever made a bad album. Maybe their last one is their worst but Rock In A Hard Place is a good album. Jimmy Crespo did a very good work.
The same ' nine lives ' is a great album if contextualized. I also think that the use of some contributors to write songs is a winning move.
An underestimated album is in my opinion 'Night in the ruts'.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: LieB ()
Date: May 16, 2016 13:38

Many of their songs by outside collaborators are fine. But I think they did their best "modern era" work with Pump, which has plenty of writing creds for Perry, Hamilton and Whitford, and fewer outside songsmiths.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: pepganzo ()
Date: May 16, 2016 14:17

I think that their best album from the modern era is Get a Gripe.
From the 70s: in this order Rocks, Night in the ruts, Toys in the attic.
Also Honkin' on bobo is a very good blues album!

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: May 16, 2016 19:40

I don't mind outside writers and collaborators if the band is still in charge. Feels wrong if the label is really in charge.
For most big pop acts these days, the label comes up with the song, the arrangements, the producers, everything. They let the artist chip in a few words and give them a writing credit for the publishing, but it's very corporate. The 'artist' is there to perform and do publicity. If he or she doesn't like it, there is no shortage of performers out there.
And it's not somebody like Kris Kristofersen hawking his songs, it's a team of songwriters working 9 to 5. Sort of a modern day Tin Pan Alley.

I guess all that matter is how the record sounds, but to me it's best if you can feel there is an artist in there somewhere.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 16, 2016 20:26

Quote
wonderboy
I don't mind outside writers and collaborators if the band is still in charge. Feels wrong if the label is really in charge.
For most big pop acts these days, the label comes up with the song, the arrangements, the producers, everything. They let the artist chip in a few words and give them a writing credit for the publishing, but it's very corporate. The 'artist' is there to perform and do publicity. If he or she doesn't like it, there is no shortage of performers out there.
And it's not somebody like Kris Kristofersen hawking his songs, it's a team of songwriters working 9 to 5. Sort of a modern day Tin Pan Alley.

I guess all that matter is how the record sounds, but to me it's best if you can feel there is an artist in there somewhere.

You are right about everything you say Wonderboy. Where the dichotomy comes in, is when the artist still represents himself as the non-corporate, anti-establishment free rocker. When the lyrics, and the image go and reflect just this, what one is not.
Not too long ago I went on an biography reading kick. All the big names; like'em or not. I ended up liking people who I used to dislike, and vice versa. After the (very good) A'smith "Walk This Way", and the (very bad) Joe Perry "Rocks" bio, my view on Tyler and Perry changed.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: DeanGoodman ()
Date: May 17, 2016 01:27

The only decent song on the last album was a cover - and you had to buy the Walmart deluxe version to get it - Standing on Shakey Ground.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Toxic34 ()
Date: May 17, 2016 01:47

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
After the (very good) A'smith "Walk This Way", and the (very bad) Joe Perry "Rocks" bio, my view on Tyler and Perry changed.

Well, the band still made the decision with the outside collaborators. Labels only entered the picture in terms of keeping "Black Cherry" off of Get A Grip and ordering Nine Lives to be re-recorded after the initial Miami sessions. Therefore, the band has often still been in charge. Also, what didn't you like about Joe's book? What changed in your view of his and Steven's relationship. Please tell me.

P.S. For whoever asked me, yes this post was written exclusively for the forum.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: gotdablouse ()
Date: May 17, 2016 02:12

That book changed my view of Aerosmith for sure with Tyler appearing as very petty and unreliable (from the stolen money that got the band in trouble to the lying about the songwriting) and Perry an honest hard working albeit of (relatively) limited talent musician. And Keith thinks he has/had things to complain about, hehe...

As for the original question, dunno, nothing wrong in getting some outside help for songwriting I suppose but a classic signature is always impressive and as the Stones showed on B2B, getting the help of musicians to spice up the parts goes a long way too.

--------------
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Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 02:25

Quote
Toxic34
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
After the (very good) A'smith "Walk This Way", and the (very bad) Joe Perry "Rocks" bio, my view on Tyler and Perry changed.

Well, the band still made the decision with the outside collaborators. Labels only entered the picture in terms of keeping "Black Cherry" off of Get A Grip and ordering Nine Lives to be re-recorded after the initial Miami sessions. Therefore, the band has often still been in charge. Also, what didn't you like about Joe's book? What changed in your view of his and Steven's relationship. Please tell me.

P.S. For whoever asked me, yes this post was written exclusively for the forum.

Well, I used to like Joe more; and thought of Steven as the 'corporate' one. But now I see it the other way around. One thing for sure: the books made me like Tyler a lot more. That was just from "Walk this Way' book.
"Rocks" I thought was frightenly boring.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Toxic34 ()
Date: May 17, 2016 03:57

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Well, I used to like Joe more; and thought of Steven as the 'corporate' one. But now I see it the other way around. One thing for sure: the books made me like Tyler a lot more.

Can I please have a little more clarification? I don't see of either Steven or Joe as corporate. Throughout his book, Joe talk about regret for the Sony deal, because of how proprietary they were (like ordering the deletion of Steven's drum and vocal tracks from Ringo's album Vertical Man), saying "we made more money, but the deal was so behind the times with how the music business was changing. I wanted to finish the deal and deliver the album that would make us free agents, but Steven kept dragging his feet." Joe also keeps castigating Steven as someone who tends to write solely with the intent to write hits.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 06:20

Quote
Toxic34
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Well, I used to like Joe more; and thought of Steven as the 'corporate' one. But now I see it the other way around. One thing for sure: the books made me like Tyler a lot more.

Can I please have a little more clarification? I don't see of either Steven or Joe as corporate. Throughout his book, Joe talk about regret for the Sony deal, because of how proprietary they were (like ordering the deletion of Steven's drum and vocal tracks from Ringo's album Vertical Man), saying "we made more money, but the deal was so behind the times with how the music business was changing. I wanted to finish the deal and deliver the album that would make us free agents, but Steven kept dragging his feet." Joe also keeps castigating Steven as someone who tends to write solely with the intent to write hits.

You are absolutely right Toxic; in all u say. In his book Joe is very much the advocate of stripping it all back down; doing the tracks live, keeping it raw. I agree with that. And in a way, even though IMO Tyler is very much the purest musician in the band, as a lead singer he comes off as the guy who might have pulled in all those outside forces - still after all was said and done, at the end of those two books I came away really liking Tyler, and finding Perry incredibly dull.
I think it is just a gut reaction of mine: yes, Tyler has done Idol, he looks ridiculous nowadays, his lyrics are pretty bad, but he rings true.
Perry did IMO a pretty good solo project, has a cool streak in his hair, but what he has to say isn;t much. Plus that thing he does on stage where every evening he beats the floor with his coat or something is weak.
I love A'smith, have all their albums, even the one with Crespo, I love "Jaded" ( a great track).

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 17:11

i ready tylers book does the noise in my head bother you. it was great. i have joes book too. not read it yet

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Kurt ()
Date: May 17, 2016 18:03

Outside collaborators = Slippery slope.
Once the door is opened, the band loses creative control forever.

The question remains: Who is in charge of the music? The band members or the record label?

I recently read an article about Steven extolling the virtues of the Nashville writing scene.
"I knew I wanted to do a solo record. It's like that Foreigner song Feels Like The First Time. I had never written with folks like the ones down here - to walk into a room, drink some coffee and eight hours later you have a song."

That quote sums up the reality and it makes me a little sick to my stomach.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 19:13

Quote
Kurt
Outside collaborators = Slippery slope.
Once the door is opened, the band loses creative control forever.

The question remains: Who is in charge of the music? The band members or the record label?

I recently read an article about Steven extolling the virtues of the Nashville writing scene.
"I knew I wanted to do a solo record. It's like that Foreigner song Feels Like The First Time. I had never written with folks like the ones down here - to walk into a room, drink some coffee and eight hours later you have a song."

That quote sums up the reality and it makes me a little sick to my stomach.

why does it make you sick that steven works hard for 8 hours with other folks and after that has a song?

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: May 17, 2016 19:46

PUMP was killer and their best track ever is on that one, F.I.N.E. That tune just kills me.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Kurt ()
Date: May 17, 2016 19:56

Quote
keefriffhard4life

why does it make you sick that steven works hard for 8 hours with other folks and after that has a song?

Because Rock N' Roll shouldn't be a 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM job,
in my humble opinion.

Those writers in Nashville punch the time clock everyday and pump out some truly awful pop trash designed to hit the right demographics right in the crotch. If Steven Tyler wants to work in that environment now, so be it.

I remain a little sick to my stomach.

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 20:03

Quote
GasLightStreet
PUMP was killer and their best track ever is on that one, F.I.N.E. That tune just kills me.

love that song

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: pepganzo ()
Date: May 17, 2016 22:24

Pump has got Monkey On my Back!

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Date: May 17, 2016 22:30

Quote
Kurt
Quote
keefriffhard4life

why does it make you sick that steven works hard for 8 hours with other folks and after that has a song?

Because Rock N' Roll shouldn't be a 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM job,
in my humble opinion.

Those writers in Nashville punch the time clock everyday and pump out some truly awful pop trash designed to hit the right demographics right in the crotch. If Steven Tyler wants to work in that environment now, so be it.

I remain a little sick to my stomach.

whats the difference in that and when other bands say "we locked ourselves in a room until we had a few good songs"

besides tyler is talking about his country solo album not rock n roll

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: May 17, 2016 23:55

Didn't our heroes get started when Andrew Loog locked them in the kitchen and told them to write some hits like the Fab Four.
winking smiley

Re: OT: Aerosmith-In Defense Of Collaborators
Posted by: Kurt ()
Date: May 18, 2016 00:14

Quote
wonderboy
Didn't our heroes get started when Andrew Loog locked them in the kitchen and told them to write some hits like the Fab Four.
winking smiley

Of course!
smileys with beer


But no one is "locking themselves in a room" in Nashville.




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