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Edward Twining

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paulm
@ Edward Twining, nice critique.

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Doxa
the difference between Joss Stone and Mick Jagger in regard to their dept on 'original' black music, is that while "Jagger turned imitation into art. For Joss Stone it remains a craft." I think Amy was nearer to Mick's position than to ms. Stone's.

+1. For me, Joss Stone is derivative, one dimensional. She looks great and sounds authentic, but lacks originality. I really pick this up watching the SuperHeavy vids. There are SO many singers who nail the Motown sound, but do not have the ability to transcend that into art.

Yes, you are dead right. I feel like that about Beverley Knight too. She has a great voice, but i never find her interpretation of soul truly convincing. Not forgetting that jazz was Amy's primary influence, before she turned to soul for 'Back To Black'. Amy had the best of both worlds, being a truly outstanding singer from a technical viewpoint, and also living each song in her interpretation so instinctively. It perhaps helps also that many of those songs were also a touch autobiographical, with the topic/subject matter being close to her heart. I suppose that is also one of the advantages of living such an emotionally charged life!!

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Doxa

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ineedadrink
why are we romanticizing this so-called "27 club"? everyone knows about it now, pretty much. why glorify it even more? i'm pretty sure if someone did some research they'd find that at least 5 famous people died at the age of 73. or 83. or 47. or 65. or 91 or blah blah blah. how many big names from the sixties survived past the age of 27? i'm pretty sure it's a lot more than those that are in the "27 club".

People seem to have a go for numbers. I would say the casulties of the innocent and naive 60's - Brian, Jimi, Janis, Jim - and if we weren't so number freaky, many others not 27 and perhaps not that famous (I would also include people like Gram Parsons, Keith Moon or John Bonham too) - belong to a certain group of the first and original rock generation that learned the price of their 'cool' life style hard way. People who come after them, should know better. They have enough bad examples before them and being rich and famous, the best cures and rehabs or whatever to not repeat the fate of the first genaration. (So in this sense I 'understand' the actions of the first generation more than the ones who followed them). I think the idiocy of the "27" club really started by the time death of Kurt Cobain. Before that it was a thing of the past, a freak oddity. But then the cult of the biggest hero of the 90's, Cobain's, made it somehow cool and magical again. And now, contingently, poor Amy...

For example, even Jagger and Watts have mentioned that during the 60's when Brian got lost in drugs there wasn't places to send him or to treat him, or even know to what to do with him. No experience, no examples, nothing. And that took place during the time many of them really thought LSD can really enlarge your mind and consciousness, taking drugs an sich was such a hip or a gas thing to do, and not knowing anything of the consequences. And Brian wasn't even into heroin yet. But by the end of the 70's, people knew much much much more. The loss of those big names, starting from the most talented of them all, Hendrix, was a contingent but not such a surprise (now in hindsight) we can say. Sad sad sad. Yeah, I guess it was more to do with a good luck that, say, Johnny Winter, Eric Clapton and Keith Richards got alive through the early/mid 70's period (when they 'mastered' the habit what they learned during the groovy 60's), or not having such a bad luck as Hendrix, and still are among us.

Oh yeah, if one doesn't want to repeat the fate of Amy Winehouse, there is a text book published last year that tells how to do it - how to manage alive and be cool whiling using drugs. A book called LIFE. (Now, after Amy's death, those passages in the book look very tasteless, pathetic and, most of all, stupid where Keef gives us 'instructions'.)

- Doxa

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stupidguy2
Agree. There are plenty of good singers, great even, who can do the retro soul thing. But Amy was someting on a whole other level. She really was an artist. I've already been hearing the cynics, those who will feign outrage of being named along with Hendrix or Joplin etc....
But the girl was special, not just another derivative singer with a cute ass or gimmick. There was something so tangible about her pain, life during a live performance. Was some of it for dramatic effect? Maybe, probably, but so was a stumbling Billie Holiday with her long sleeves and stupor or Joplin on stage with her Southern Comfort.

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Edward Twining

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stupidguy2
Agree. There are plenty of good singers, great even, who can do the retro soul thing. But Amy was someting on a whole other level. She really was an artist. I've already been hearing the cynics, those who will feign outrage of being named along with Hendrix or Joplin etc....
But the girl was special, not just another derivative singer with a cute ass or gimmick. There was something so tangible about her pain, life during a live performance. Was some of it for dramatic effect? Maybe, probably, but so was a stumbling Billie Holiday with her long sleeves and stupor or Joplin on stage with her Southern Comfort.

Well, the thing about the 'Black To Black' album, alongside the great songs, and the brilliance of Amy's singing, is the fact there is such an authenticity in the way the album was produced. This pretty much goes against the grain of much of the other modern retro sounds, many of which sounds a little unauthentic, perhaps a little too clinical and sterile in this hi tech digital world. Amy pretty much went the whole hog, with the aid of Salaam Remi and Mark Ronson in recording with traditional instruments, and production etc. and this doesn't half show. The album has a richness and a depth which is just so hard to find in most modern music these days. The difference with Amy, even when compared with Jagger's early blues efforts, is she was just so completely convincing, right from the start. 'Frank', which is primarly jazz influenced, finds her fully formed within that genre, and exuding an incredible maturity. By the time of 'Black To Black', it is very much the same scenario, but this time in the genre of soul. The same characteristics shine through on both occasions - utter conviction and believeabilty within her singing interpretations.

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Max'sKansasCity
fwiw-[dreamhawk.com]

Every Seven Years You Change

""ARE you the same person now that you were fifteen years ago? In fact, are you the same person you were just seven years ago? Most of us have heard the old saying that every cell in the body is changed over a period of seven years; but recent investigation has uncovered facts of far more significance to us as human beings. This concerns the emotional, physical and mental changes that seem to occur in approximate seven-year intervals.""..... more@ [dreamhawk.com]

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-26 03:16 by stupidguy2.

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stupidguy2

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.

No, my theory didn't suggest that, and I didn't mean to say she was inauthentic. Just that perhaps she was praised beyond her actual accomplishments. Nor did I say she didn't have talent.

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.

No, my theory didn't suggest that, and I didn't mean to say she was inauthentic. Just that perhaps she was praised beyond her actual accomplishments. Nor did I say she didn't have talent.

But that could be said for many artists who die young. Janis and Jimi, the two giant icons of music, died when their careers had just begun. Janis had what...two, three albums before she died. Jimi, three before his death. Im not comparing these artists, just saying that you can make that argument against anyone. James Dean only released two films before his death and so on....
River Phoenix?
They were young.....therein lies the tragedy. A really bright light just gone....that's why its tragic - the promise will never be realized.
AW released two studio albums and various EPs, live sessions etc...
Aw had become a punchline for comedians for the last five years of her life to the point that that's all many people know about her.
Tele, this isn't argument, I like to debate this stuff....

I love her here: without all the makeup, beehive....she just looks like a kid playing her guitar.







Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-26 03:46 by stupidguy2.

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His Majesty

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donteverstop


I could be wrong but I remember an interview w/ Keith saying he never really over did the heroin.

But w/ alcohol, some pills, I don't know.

That just typical Keith babble...

Plain and simple, Keith is lucky to be alive.

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stupidguy2

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.

No, my theory didn't suggest that, and I didn't mean to say she was inauthentic. Just that perhaps she was praised beyond her actual accomplishments. Nor did I say she didn't have talent.

But that could be said for many artists who die young. Janis and Jimi, the two giant icons of music, died when their careers had just begun. Janis had what...two, three albums before she died. Jimi, three before his death. Im not comparing these artists, just saying that you can make that argument against anyone. James Dean only released two films before his death and so on....
River Phoenix?
They were young.....therein lies the tragedy. A really bright light just gone....that's why its tragic - the promise will never be realized.
AW released two studio albums and various EPs, live sessions etc...
Aw had become a punchline for comedians for the last five years of her life to the point that that's all many people know about her.
Tele, this isn't argument, I like to debate this stuff....

I love her here: without all the makeup, beehive....she just looks like a kid playing her guitar.

I'm not debating either, but in my opinion some of the accolades are a bit over the top given her slim body of work (same thing with Nirvana when Cobain died). She did that great album, what, four years ago? She was unable to sustain it or even follow it. She was a talented woman, no doubt about it, just sometimes I think people get carried away with superlatives simply on the basis of that person dying young. That's all I was trying to say.

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.

No, my theory didn't suggest that, and I didn't mean to say she was inauthentic. Just that perhaps she was praised beyond her actual accomplishments. Nor did I say she didn't have talent.

But that could be said for many artists who die young. Janis and Jimi, the two giant icons of music, died when their careers had just begun. Janis had what...two, three albums before she died. Jimi, three before his death. Im not comparing these artists, just saying that you can make that argument against anyone. James Dean only released two films before his death and so on....
River Phoenix?
They were young.....therein lies the tragedy. A really bright light just gone....that's why its tragic - the promise will never be realized.
AW released two studio albums and various EPs, live sessions etc...
Aw had become a punchline for comedians for the last five years of her life to the point that that's all many people know about her.
Tele, this isn't argument, I like to debate this stuff....

I love her here: without all the makeup, beehive....she just looks like a kid playing her guitar.

I'm not debating either, but in my opinion some of the accolades are a bit over the top given her slim body of work (same thing with Nirvana when Cobain died). She did that great album, what, four years ago? She was unable to sustain it or even follow it. She was a talented woman, no doubt about it, just sometimes I think people get carried away with superlatives simply on the basis of that person dying young. That's all I was trying to say.

(I meant that I enjoy debating this stuff, so I respect your POV)
But again Tele, the tragedy is that fact itself. Back to Black is a great cd, and EdwardTwinning mentioned the often forgotten "Frank", and then there were the countless live preformances she would do since 2003.....EPs....etc.
Its a body of work that is brief, but just bursting with energy and orginality.
But it really is subjective....I believe Cobain is overrated, but then I never could really relate to the era of music he personified, so its a personal preference.

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stupidguy2

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience.quote]

But that's the trend that created the Adeles, the Joss Stones, the Duffies and so m,any others.
Winehouse took it to another level. Instead of merely mimicking that sound, and I know what you mean because my 19-year old niece thinks using banjos is revolutionary (Mumford and Sons), I think AW inhabited the soul of the music through her own self-inflicted misery, as opposed to just trying to sound retro. It all sounds so pretentious, I know, but sometimes its true. Your theory suggest that no one can ever be authentic and harken back to an older style. BtoB sounded of its time, not just its influences and that's where the originality comes from, that's hard to do without real talent and real conviction. I never really like the retro stuff, because Im old and i remember the original stuff so what's the point.... but I also I think that, as someone who was born in 1965 and has a conncection to earlier icons...i think sometimes our generation tends to think nothing can ever be authentic anymore, that everything is a just a copy, a fake. I mean, blues purists said that about the Stones, all style, no substance. Aw seemed to live in her music.

No, my theory didn't suggest that, and I didn't mean to say she was inauthentic. Just that perhaps she was praised beyond her actual accomplishments. Nor did I say she didn't have talent.

But that could be said for many artists who die young. Janis and Jimi, the two giant icons of music, died when their careers had just begun. Janis had what...two, three albums before she died. Jimi, three before his death. Im not comparing these artists, just saying that you can make that argument against anyone. James Dean only released two films before his death and so on....
River Phoenix?
They were young.....therein lies the tragedy. A really bright light just gone....that's why its tragic - the promise will never be realized.
AW released two studio albums and various EPs, live sessions etc...
Aw had become a punchline for comedians for the last five years of her life to the point that that's all many people know about her.
Tele, this isn't argument, I like to debate this stuff....

I love her here: without all the makeup, beehive....she just looks like a kid playing her guitar.

I'm not debating either, but in my opinion some of the accolades are a bit over the top given her slim body of work (same thing with Nirvana when Cobain died). She did that great album, what, four years ago? She was unable to sustain it or even follow it. She was a talented woman, no doubt about it, just sometimes I think people get carried away with superlatives simply on the basis of that person dying young. That's all I was trying to say.

(I meant that I enjoy debating this stuff, so I respect your POV)
But again Tele, the tragedy is that fact itself. Back to Black is a great cd, and EdwardTwinning mentioned the often forgotten "Frank", and then there were the countless live preformances she would do since 2003.....EPs....etc.
Its a body of work that is brief, but just bursting with energy and orginality.
But it really is subjective....I believe Cobain is overrated, but then I never could really relate to the era of music he personified, so its a personal preference.

I understand and enjoy debating as well...I remember when Kurt died people were comparing Nirvana to the Beatles. My point at the time was it isn't just a generational thing, Nirvana had done exactly two major label records, so any such comparison was overreaching at best. I agree that Winehouse was an original talent. Unfortunately she became better known for her dysfunction than her artistry, and I believe that sadly, it could have been prevented.

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience. Unfortunately we will never know what she could have accomplished, but her actual artistic accomplishments (all of two albums) are rather thin. I don't mean to diminish her talents, just that when someone dies before their time, lots of superlatives get rolled out. By the way I don't think Janis was as amazing as the conventional wisdom would have it either. A lot of it is the age we live in and the fact that we have the media that we do now.

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience. Unfortunately we will never know what she could have accomplished, but her actual artistic accomplishments (all of two albums) are rather thin. I don't mean to diminish her talents, just that when someone dies before their time, lots of superlatives get rolled out. By the way I don't think Janis was as amazing as the conventional wisdom would have it either. A lot of it is the age we live in and the fact that we have the media that we do now.

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guitarbastard

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71Tele
She had something for sure, but for me a lot of her sound was more style than substance. People are so hungry for authenticity that someone making music in the style of an earlier, more passionate time (for people who were not around in the 50s and 60s when that original music was made) found a ready audience. Unfortunately we will never know what she could have accomplished, but her actual artistic accomplishments (all of two albums) are rather thin. I don't mean to diminish her talents, just that when someone dies before their time, lots of superlatives get rolled out. By the way I don't think Janis was as amazing as the conventional wisdom would have it either. A lot of it is the age we live in and the fact that we have the media that we do now.

i agree that her output (in quantity) was rather thin. but what i love about her is her absolut natural feel and talent. her timing, her voice, her phrasing...it all felt so easy and natural. i think she could polish her nails or cook spaghettis and sing a melodie that killed you. all her emotions just came out directly, unfiltered, pure and very strong. thats what people feel. thats what music IMO is all about. of course she was retro i way, but she made something new out of it. something personal, something emotional and real. and not to forget: she was a brilliant composer!

just check out one of those DL-show sessions! pure genious to me.







YOU WERE AMAZING AMY, thank you for your wonderful music!!!!!

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tatters
A lot of people have mentioned her small body of work, but during their lifetimes, Hendrix released only three albums

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treaclefingers

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Doxa

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ineedadrink
why are we romanticizing this so-called "27 club"? everyone knows about it now, pretty much. why glorify it even more? i'm pretty sure if someone did some research they'd find that at least 5 famous people died at the age of 73. or 83. or 47. or 65. or 91 or blah blah blah. how many big names from the sixties survived past the age of 27? i'm pretty sure it's a lot more than those that are in the "27 club".

People seem to have a go for numbers. I would say the casulties of the innocent and naive 60's - Brian, Jimi, Janis, Jim - and if we weren't so number freaky, many others not 27 and perhaps not that famous (I would also include people like Gram Parsons, Keith Moon or John Bonham too) - belong to a certain group of the first and original rock generation that learned the price of their 'cool' life style hard way. People who come after them, should know better. They have enough bad examples before them and being rich and famous, the best cures and rehabs or whatever to not repeat the fate of the first genaration. (So in this sense I 'understand' the actions of the first generation more than the ones who followed them). I think the idiocy of the "27" club really started by the time death of Kurt Cobain. Before that it was a thing of the past, a freak oddity. But then the cult of the biggest hero of the 90's, Cobain's, made it somehow cool and magical again. And now, contingently, poor Amy...

For example, even Jagger and Watts have mentioned that during the 60's when Brian got lost in drugs there wasn't places to send him or to treat him, or even know to what to do with him. No experience, no examples, nothing. And that took place during the time many of them really thought LSD can really enlarge your mind and consciousness, taking drugs an sich was such a hip or a gas thing to do, and not knowing anything of the consequences. And Brian wasn't even into heroin yet. But by the end of the 70's, people knew much much much more. The loss of those big names, starting from the most talented of them all, Hendrix, was a contingent but not such a surprise (now in hindsight) we can say. Sad sad sad. Yeah, I guess it was more to do with a good luck that, say, Johnny Winter, Eric Clapton and Keith Richards got alive through the early/mid 70's period (when they 'mastered' the habit what they learned during the groovy 60's), or not having such a bad luck as Hendrix, and still are among us.

Oh yeah, if one doesn't want to repeat the fate of Amy Winehouse, there is a text book published last year that tells how to do it - how to manage alive and be cool whiling using drugs. A book called LIFE. (Now, after Amy's death, those passages in the book look very tasteless, pathetic and, most of all, stupid where Keef gives us 'instructions'.)

- Doxa

Original bassist for Black Crowes (a 15 year 'recovering addict) threw Keith under the bus today (as a very negative influence on rock culture, re: the drugs), on CNN interview re: Amy Winehouse.

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His Majesty

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tatters
A lot of people have mentioned her small body of work, but during their lifetimes, Hendrix released only three albums

Then there's the singles, Band of Gypsys live album, the recordings from before he was famous and touring schedules that'd make most modern musicians crumble.

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His Majesty

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tatters
A lot of people have mentioned her small body of work, but during their lifetimes, Hendrix released only three albums

Then there's the singles, Band of Gypsys live album, the recordings from before he was famous and touring schedules that'd make most modern musicians crumble.

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guitarbastard

i agree that her output (in quantity) was rather thin. but what i love about her is her absolut natural feel and talent. her timing, her voice, her phrasing...it all felt so easy and natural. i think she could polish her nails or cook spaghettis and sing a melodie that killed you. all her emotions just came out directly, unfiltered, pure and very strong. thats what people feel. thats what music IMO is all about. of course she was retro i way, but she made something new out of it. something personal, something emotional and real. and not to forget: she was a brilliant composer!

just check out one of those DL-show sessions! pure genious to me.

YOU WERE AMAZING AMY, thank you for your wonderful music!!!!!