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RobertJohnson
It is difficult to estimate. Brian Jones is regarded as the founder of the band, as a blues man, but there are no compositions, no guitar solos, no any other prolific material which is identifiable as Brian's. The most contributions are in line with what Keith said in this interview above. The live documents are sparse and there he's playing only rhyhthm without any ingenious characteristic in contrast e.g. to Ronnie's rhythm contributions.

Blasphemy! And you call yourself Robert Johnson? Brian introduced Keith to Robert Johnson! Ron Wood is not worth one of Brian's fingernails.

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tonterapi

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mickschix
Speaking for myself, I've had a hard time liking much about him, after reading three bios that delve into his psychosis, and his arrogance and just plain mean personality. It's tough to appreciate his talent when one forms such a negative opinion of him.

Wih three bios did you read?

I don't buy the "plain mean personality". I think it's mean to judge a person that hard when he hasn't had any chance to defend himself. Charlie Watts once compared Brian's "cruel" side with the one of John Lennon and I think that's fair. Mick and Keith has got some of that nasty side too and the arrogance...well, both the Stones (except Charlie) and the Beatles (except Ringo) were full of that. If that's not enough look at the big heads on Dylan and Jim Morrison. It's a common thing among "stars". Brian was indeed a flawed person, but many people still liked him a lot despite his paranoid and insecure character.

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His Majesty
If musicians have to be nice for you to be able to appreciate them, you're a fan of the wrong band!

With the exception of Charlie and Mick Taylor(even they have had their own dubious moments), the rest of the stones are horrible, selfish people. Some of the things I've read you hating about Brian the others have done themselves.

+1

+1

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24FPS

Also, I still believe that Brian plays the lead solo on 'Time Is On My Side'.

You're kidding, right?

Mathijs

TONTERAPI, GOLDEN STONE by Laura Jackson is one of the 3 and I will find the other 2 but your challenging the fact that Brian was a mean bastard is like asking if a bear craps in the woods! REALLY? You never heard he was an abuser of ALL of his girlfriends? Then you are not well read on the Stones. And yes, I don't have to love a performer to appreciate his music BUT In this case, it has colored my impression of Brian. Do I love the specific contributions in ALL of those songs...of course, but that doesn't change my opinion of the man. More later...

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rootsman

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RobertJohnson
It is difficult to estimate. Brian Jones is regarded as the founder of the band, as a blues man, but there are no compositions, no guitar solos, no any other prolific material which is identifiable as Brian's...

How about these?:

Road Runner – lead guitar, probably harmonica
I Want To Be Loved (the B-side) – harmonica
I Wanna Be Your Man – lead (slide) guitar, harmony vocals
Stoned – harmonica
Mona (I Need You Baby) – lead (tremolo) guitar
I Just Want To Make Love To You - harmonica
Not Fade Away – harmonica
Now I´ve Got A Witness – harmonica
Good Times, Bad Times – harmonica
Cops And Robbers – harmonica
It´s All Over Now – rhythm/co-lead “power chords” guitar
I Can´t Be Satisfied – slide guitar
2120 South Michigan Avenue – harmonica
Confessin´ The Blues – rhythm/co-lead guitar (early “weaving”?)
Look What You´ve Done – harmonica
Down In The Bottom – slide guitar
Little Red Rooster – slide guitar
The Last Time – lead (riff) guitar
I´m Moving On – slide guitar
I´m Alright – lead (“Bo Diddley”) guitar
The Under Assistant… (1989 Singles Collection mix) – harmonica
One More Try - harmonica
Get Off Of My Cloud – lead guitar figure
Doncha Bother Me – slide guitar
Mother´s Little Helper – lead 12-string slide guitar
High And Dry – harmonica
Under My Thumb – marimbas
Lady Jane – dulcimer
Paint It Black – sitar, acoustic guitar
Yesterday´s Papers – vibraphone
Please Go Home – lead (“Bo Diddley”) guitar (unverified)
Ruby Tuesday – recorder, probably piano
Dandelion – soprano sax, probably harpsichord
We Love You – mellotron
She´s A Rainbow – mellotron
Gomper – electric dulcimer, recorder
2000 Light Years From Home – mellotron
Child Of The Moon – soprano sax
Street Fighting Man – sitar, tamboura
Jig-Saw Puzzle – mellotron
No Expectations – acoustic slide guitar
Still A Fool – slide guitar

For those who still don´t get it - it´s your loss...

I do not say that Brians contributions are worthless, but your list confirms the statement of Keith that Brians efforts are colorings imo. Best wishes RJ.

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neptune

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RobertJohnson
It is difficult to estimate. Brian Jones is regarded as the founder of the band, as a blues man, but there are no compositions, no guitar solos, no any other prolific material which is identifiable as Brian's. The most contributions are in line with what Keith said in this interview above. The live documents are sparse and there he's playing only rhyhthm without any ingenious characteristic in contrast e.g. to Ronnie's rhythm contributions.

Blasphemy! And you call yourself Robert Johnson? Brian introduced Keith to Robert Johnson! Ron Wood is not worth one of Brian's fingernails.

The matter of discussion at issue is the MUSICAL contribution Brian did, not a list of recommendations with which he introduced his freinds to the blues men of history.

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stones78
"the author is not seeing the forest for the trees.for those who possess the ability to create something truly trancendant the hard work,the hours,the practice is all just part of the process. its a given,an afterthought."

Not at all, an afterthought? It is the hard work, the hours and the practice that makes "genius", people don't just suddenly wake up and become masters of their craft. Never happened.

i never said anyone just "woke up and became a master of their craft" what i said was that of course there are hours of practice,painters paint,singers sing.thats what they do,but hard work will only get you so far.
if you dont belive it,let me know how many hours of practice it will take you to sing bohemian rhapsody.

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RobertJohnson
I do not say that Brians contributions are worthless, but your list confirms the statement of Keith that Brians efforts are colorings imo. Best wishes RJ.

So, Brian's slide on Little Red Rooster, I Can't Be Satisfied, No Expectations or harmonica on Look What You've Done are mere coloring?

The exception proves the rule, I think ... It sums 4 tracks up, but there are about 200 Stones-songs alone till '69. And Brian isn't playing anything on this 4 tracks what is extraordinary, I think. But you're right, "Little Red Rooster" seems to be the most Brian-like track of the band.

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neptune

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RobertJohnson
I do not say that Brians contributions are worthless, but your list confirms the statement of Keith that Brians efforts are colorings imo. Best wishes RJ.

So, Brian's slide on Little Red Rooster, I Can't Be Satisfied, No Expectations or harmonica on Look What You've Done are mere coloring?

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mickschix
TONTERAPI, GOLDEN STONE by Laura Jackson is one of the 3 and I will find the other 2 but your challenging the fact that Brian was a mean bastard is like asking if a bear craps in the woods! REALLY? You never heard he was an abuser of ALL of his girlfriends? Then you are not well read on the Stones. And yes, I don't have to love a performer to appreciate his music BUT In this case, it has colored my impression of Brian. Do I love the specific contributions in ALL of those songs...of course, but that doesn't change my opinion of the man. More later...

The Jackson book is good because of all the quotes. She defend his behaviour too much but still manages to give some explanations for it. Together with Aftel's book it's an interesting read and give some balance to all the negative views on him. Brian wasn't just an a-hole as a person. There were reasons for his actions.

In my former post I said that Brian had a "cruel" side and was a flawed person. But I didn't agree with the "plain mean personality" crap as there are plenty of stories about his more caring and funny side. Like Charlie said - he was a bit like Lennon who also could be a cruel bastard if he wanted.
I do know that he was abusive to his girls but that alone doesn't make him a "plain mean personality". I just don't excuse that side of him just like I don't excuse Ozzy Osbourne for beating up and almost killing Sharon. It says nothing about them as musicians in the end.

Brian's behaviour had it's roots in his insecurity, stiff upbringing, drugs, stress and the possibilty of him having a personality disorder. It's no wonder that he became another person during his last month in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-19 18:27 by tonterapi.

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Mathijs

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24FPS

Also, I still believe that Brian plays the lead solo on 'Time Is On My Side'.

You're kidding, right?

Mathijs

Until I see visual proof, or someone in the band clarify the matter, I'm going to stick with that position. As I stated previously this assertion is based on an interview with Keith during the '81 tour. I'd like to find the interview, obviously. And videos of the song are inconclusive as the camera cuts away in both known TV performances to show only Mick during the solo. It would not be out of character in 1964 for Brian to play a blues solo.

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24FPS

Until I see visual proof, or someone in the band clarify the matter, I'm going to stick with that position. As I stated previously this assertion is based on an interview with Keith during the '81 tour. I'd like to find the interview, obviously. And videos of the song are inconclusive as the camera cuts away in both known TV performances to show only Mick during the solo. It would not be out of character in 1964 for Brian to play a blues solo.

It's because of a band member that you've been mis informed.

Yeah, lets just ignore what they play when we do see them and what their guitars sound like because that doesn't tell us anything.

Why are you ignoring the simple fact that Brians tremolo effected guitar part plays through the solo, but Keith's chordal strumming doesn't?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-19 22:31 by His Majesty.

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24FPS

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Mathijs

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24FPS

Also, I still believe that Brian plays the lead solo on 'Time Is On My Side'.

You're kidding, right?

Mathijs

Until I see visual proof, or someone in the band clarify the matter, I'm going to stick with that position. As I stated previously this assertion is based on an interview with Keith during the '81 tour. I'd like to find the interview, obviously. And videos of the song are inconclusive as the camera cuts away in both known TV performances to show only Mick during the solo. It would not be out of character in 1964 for Brian to play a blues solo.

I don't believe that Taylor played the solo of Can't You Hear Me Knocking until I see a video of it.

What a load of bollocks. First, I don't believe Keith has stated that Brian did the solo on Time. He probably made some comments on the tracks from the Jones era they did on the 81 tour, but it is impossible that he would have stated Brian did the solo. Why? Because even the most drugged out Keith Richards knows it wasn't Brian doing the solo.

Then the recordings. On each and every recording -live, studio- it's Brian doing the tremelo picked guitar (as he did on many songs) and Keith the chordal work. During the solo Brian's guitar continues, and Keith's guitar changes from chords to a 100% Keith anno '65 solo. After the solo, Brian continues with the tremelo picked guitar he's been playing without interruption, and Keith continues with the chordal work.

So, you believe a statement that wasn't made 30 years ago over what your eyes see and your ears hear.

Now I understand why religion will never disappear.

Mathijs

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24FPS

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Mathijs

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24FPS

Also, I still believe that Brian plays the lead solo on 'Time Is On My Side'.

You're kidding, right?

Mathijs

Until I see visual proof, or someone in the band clarify the matter, I'm going to stick with that position. As I stated previously this assertion is based on an interview with Keith during the '81 tour. I'd like to find the interview, obviously. And videos of the song are inconclusive as the camera cuts away in both known TV performances to show only Mick during the solo. It would not be out of character in 1964 for Brian to play a blues solo.

Do you refer to Keith´s interview by Kurt Loder back in ´81,24FPS ?
I only got the german Rolling Stone issue of January `82,where it´s included,can´t say how accurate it was translated,
but I`ll give it a try and re-translate it,knowing,that schillid posted the original one some time ago...just can´t find it.
Don´t blame me...

K.Loder : " Brian Jones is dead for 12 years now.Do you still think of him ?"
K.Richards : " Yes,everytime I play Time Is On My Side or his guitarlicks of Mona, I think of him."

After that,Keith was not fishing for compliments concerning Brian...

Hey shortfatfunny,

That's pretty much what he said in the RS interview from my recollection. Hard to believe that was nearly 30 years ago! I still have the issue somewhere at home with Keith on the cover.

Ok, so the other 2 Brian books that I read are " Death of a Rolling Stone-The Brian Jones Story", by Mandy Aftel and " Straight FRom Ther Heart-THe Roling Stone Murder" by Gloria Shepard. I've also watched DVD's on his life and death. IT does seem that the consensus is that he had a terrible temper, was, as you said a very flawed man. As you can see, I have found him interesting; the reason I took the time to read about his life started not with the need to dig up the dirt on him but rather to understand this musician . If you love the music of the Stones as I always have..since I was ten, you want to see how such a guy evolved. Plus I love the blues and believe it or not, I loved his slide playing. How can you not appreciate his talent, however the more I read, the more disturbed I became over the contradictions in his personality. On one hand, he was the founder of the band, the one who at first helped form their unique sound. On the other hand, he seemed to not be able to handle the fame, the women, and the limitations that he recognized in his own abilities. Yes, he was stressed but I never was able to excuse his horrible behavior. He spun out of control and I had little sympathy because he was no longer likeable as a human being. I sided with Mick and Keith who must have been confliced about how to handle the situation. I think they made the right decision when they booted him out. The couldn't even tour if he'd remained in the band with all of his drug convictions. I think the drugs made it so much worse because he was reduced to a paranoid mess at the end. That's about all I have to say for now.

Sorry about the typos in the first few lines! It pays to proof read before posting! Yikes!

Not overrated.

BJ had just done his best when Grimmer twins wrote their own songs.
CW and BW ,MT RW they had been done too.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-20 02:17 by Richmond63.

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mickschix
Ok, so the other 2 Brian books that I read are " Death of a Rolling Stone-The Brian Jones Story", by Mandy Aftel and " Straight FRom Ther Heart-THe Roling Stone Murder" by Gloria Shepard. I've also watched DVD's on his life and death. IT does seem that the consensus is that he had a terrible temper, was, as you said a very flawed man. As you can see, I have found him interesting; the reason I took the time to read about his life started not with the need to dig up the dirt on him but rather to understand this musician . If you love the music of the Stones as I always have..since I was ten, you want to see how such a guy evolved. Plus I love the blues and believe it or not, I loved his slide playing. How can you not appreciate his talent, however the more I read, the more disturbed I became over the contradictions in his personality. On one hand, he was the founder of the band, the one who at first helped form their unique sound. On the other hand, he seemed to not be able to handle the fame, the women, and the limitations that he recognized in his own abilities. Yes, he was stressed but I never was able to excuse his horrible behavior. He spun out of control and I had little sympathy because he was no longer likeable as a human being. I sided with Mick and Keith who must have been confliced about how to handle the situation. I think they made the right decision when they booted him out. The couldn't even tour if he'd remained in the band with all of his drug convictions. I think the drugs made it so much worse because he was reduced to a paranoid mess at the end. That's about all I have to say for now.

The Gloria Shepherd book is ridiculous. It is not based on facts. She used a psychic and the book also has a disclaimer. Aftel's book is very good in that it was the first one written after his death and she interviewed Keith and Stu four times in the early seventies. Keith is very even-handed towards Brian in her book.
His 1967 court ordered psychiatric report is in her book. He had two drug convictions.

bollocks!!!

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mickschix
TONTERAPI, GOLDEN STONE by Laura Jackson is one of the 3 and I will find the other 2 but your challenging the fact that Brian was a mean bastard is like asking if a bear craps in the woods! REALLY? You never heard he was an abuser of ALL of his girlfriends? Then you are not well read on the Stones. And yes, I don't have to love a performer to appreciate his music BUT In this case, it has colored my impression of Brian. Do I love the specific contributions in ALL of those songs...of course, but that doesn't change my opinion of the man. More later...

I think that's the thing here. You base the whole "verdict" on his flaws. I think you have valid points and I dont defend his cruel sides, I believe he had a cruel side, Anita's glimmer twin really, and I believe this is a huge part of the Stones image, their story, their impact, their style and the music.

High tide green grass is one of the best album covers ever made. you watch that one guy who stands out, who is magnetic, even for a straight guy like me or Mick, Keith or Jim Morrisson, and that is the guy with the perfect hair, clothes, that look in his eyes and the broken hand. He was the rock god of that band very early on.

I also believe that Keiths opinions on Brian are pointless if you dont know the context. I dont think he knew Brian that well, I'm sure he observed him and Brians different goals in life just like he observed the stable Mick. Keith is working class. That mattered in London in the 60s. His only goal in life was to play guitar, have a dog and a girl and heroin to numb out memories of the pets his mum killed. Very punk if you ask me.
Brian wanted more. The band got more with Brian the focal point and Mick the singer and Keiths riffs and their songs. And of course Brians musical contributions. Keith may bithch about Brian and Mick but Keith enjoys the fruits and the free time.

Maybe Brian was one of those you can observe, follow and not be close to.

Well, it depends (I'm talking about the original issue here).

I have noticed that if Brian is over-rated it is among his biggest die-hard fans who think that the 60's Stones was 'all Brian' and who don't give a shit about the post-Jones Stones and usually hate Jagger and Richards. There aren't many of them actually. Bless their hearts.

But then what I find funny is that if Brian Jones is underrated that is among the diehard Rolling Stones fans who mostly dig the post-Jones, guitar-driven, hard rocking Stones, starting roughly with "Jumping Jack Flash", and who think that the Stones is basically nothing but Jagger/Richards show, and usually they tend to see Keith "the Pirate" Richards as god-like figure. Bless their hearts too.

But then there is an audience of critical but sophisticated enough masses, including many critics and journalists, music historians, etc who are not really die hard fans of The Stones or - what is more important - don't really see Jagger and Richards as semi-gods and who (thereby) seem to have not so biased but more 'objective' account to Jones's role in the history of The Stones and rock music over-all. Among this crowd Brian's achievements, I think, are estimated quite fairly.

We have to remember that when the The Stones is actually written to history of rock music or Western culture over-all, their days of relevance - when they really had an impact on the world around them, and were'leaders'- are those of the Brian days (plus few years in the beginning of the 70's). After that is that mega-business or self-referential music that hasn't really have (had) significance outside of its own box (it's artistically quite boring, I have noticed, to 'outsiders', but as a huge phenomenon the Stones seem attract even quite many of them as a live act, and the band don't let them - 'tourists' - down). Brian very much represented best the Stones of those rebellious, adventurous days when the band really made the difference and most of their most famous songs and I think Brian is remembered, and will be remembered, for that (his 'odd' experimental instruments starting with slide guitar and harmonica, style, image, attitude), no matter what Jagger or Richards or their die-hard fans think; an impact like that is in bigger hands, so to say.

So the answer really is: it depends on the people and the context you are talking about and referring to. Now, that's a helluva boring answer!

- Doxa



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-20 12:29 by Doxa.

Brians contributions were important up till Beggars Banquet, imo. By then, Keith had developed to be a class guitar player handling the tracks on his own.

Yeah, I really like No Expectations, but I like Love In Vain even more - the slide work, too. So Keith could have done NE by himself, imo.

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DandelionPowderman

Yeah, I really like No Expectations, but I like Love In Vain even more - the slide work, too. So Keith could have done NE by himself, imo.

Personally I think that the slide of "No Expectations" is praised a bit too much, i.e. is over-rated. Don't get me wrong: it is great, haunting, effective and suits perfectly to the mood of the song as Brian's best contributions always do - but since it is the last track and it is especially guitar track where Brian can be actually heard contributing efficiently people seem to read a bit too much on it. But if it didn't have that dramatical "Brain for the very last time" aura in it, I don't think it would be talked so much. It is basically a fragile, simple slide piece, nothing more, nothing less. When I listen to it, my mind goes: "is this shakey, fragile slide playing all there is left of this wonderful talent who once conquered about half of the instruments of the world and made unforgettable results?". It is sad - it is supposed to sound sad but I think it also sounds sad for not intended reason.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-20 13:19 by Doxa.

Agree, Doxa (even though it feels like swearing in church saying it about Brian´s guitar track).

BTW, Keith´s slide on Love In Vain is to this day the most beautiful slide recording on a Stones album, imo. I don´t care if he nicked it from Ry Cooder, it´s just as soulful as it gets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-20 13:22 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
Agree, Doxa (even though it feels like swearing in church saying it about Brian´s guitar track).

I share your sentiment - it is one of those 'sacred' Brain Jones moments, and especially by being thr very last one, so one should be careful what to say about it. I admit that I had my second thoughts if I will I write my brief criticism or not, does it sound 'tasteless' or not, but I decided to do that. I think I have defended Brian Jones so much in this forum that I am allowed to do that!

- Doxa

I wonder how fast I would be banned if I started a thread "Charlie's contributions are woefully overrated"?

What would the difference be against this topic?

2 1 2 0

Nothing.

But one won´t get banned for expressing a musical opinion about the Stones or the group´s members.

OK, then I have 6 new threads to start with Mick Mick Charlie Keith Bill and Ronnie...

2 1 2 0

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Redhotcarpet
High tide green grass is one of the best album covers ever made. you watch that one guy who stands out, who is magnetic, even for a straight guy like me or Mick, Keith or Jim Morrisson, and that is the guy with the perfect hair, clothes, that look in his eyes and the broken hand.

Why else does Brian stand out in the High Tide cover? Those loud red pants!