Tell Me :
Talk
Never occured to me before, but that makes a lot of sense.
I found the thread - but sadly it was a long time ago and 99% of the pictures have vanished.
As a side issue - Mick had a period of using a radio headset mike - which must be a constant fixed distance from his mouth. How did that affect his singing?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-31 07:06 by Green Lady.
That is an excellent question Green Lady! I'm not sure the answer without hearing some of those performances. But one of the things that would have been sure to have been used in conjunction with that type of a microphone is pretty heavy compression with would basically soften the loud notes so they didn't overload the system. But it would certainly limit the way he could naturally use the mic to enhance the performance with things like proximity.
Do you remember when exactly when that was?
Damn! Another Stones video blocked in my country (USA). YouTube must have received a pretty long list from Eagle Rock. Makes me curious as to what criteria was used to choose which songs would be blocked.
z wrote on another thread:
"Large diaphragm mics are more popular for vocals, aren't they? Yes, the smaller the diaphragm the less off-axis coloration you get. However, small diaphragm condensers have other coloration effects caused by closeness to the source. But we're going a little too off topic here."
Yes no doubt the large diaphragm condensers are much more popular for vocals and have become the standard in most pro studios. They seem to be more forgiving than the small diaphragm ones, which can be brutally honest in the way they reproduce the sound, especially in the higher frequency range. I've actually seen them work great on vocals before so it's certainly not clear cut....I guess it depends on the singer and maybe more specifically the quality of the higher freq. components of their voice.
I generally use the small diaphragm condensers for acoustic guitar and other acoustic instruments like mandolin which have a lot of higher frequency components to the sound but they also work great for overheads and things like cymbals.
Of course experimentation is the best (and most fun) way to record any vocalist or instrument if you've got the time. It's nice to be able to put multiple mics on a vocalist or instrument and then objectively sort through the results later on, choosing one or the other or even a mix of the two. Live sound is a different animal though and everyone pretty much sticks to standard and proven mic selection for obvious reasons.
One thing that is clear important about mic selection is that the better the raw recording you initially get, the better it sounds after mixing. Although helpful, no amount of EQ, effects or other after the fact signal processing can make up for a poorly recorded vocal, imo.
Talk about your favorite band.
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The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:47
A really interesting discussion of the way Mick and Keith approach the microphone
has gotten started on the CrossEyed Heart thread, and I feel it deserves a thread of its own.
has gotten started on the CrossEyed Heart thread, and I feel it deserves a thread of its own.
Quote
NaturalustQuote
35love
What is the correct way, then, to sing into a microphone? Am I dense to think that means keep your mouth positioned steady over it? Thanks.
ETA: I googled it. I dunno, I'm starting to overthink. Basically, his history unfolded how it should have-
You are right 35love. A few simple techniques being the correct distance from the mic are the most important. Also things like increasing that distance when you are force to sing with more volume to either hit a high or particularly long or powerful note or doing the opposite to make it seem like you are actually holding long notes with the same relative volume (when in fact you lost the power earlier in the note). Not exhaling powerful breaths directly into the mic, etc etc.
Different type of mics also have very different qualities for vocals and the dynamic mics used for live performances are MUCH different than the large diaphragm condensers used in the studio and require different techniques. The latter pick up lots of detail and is why you get transients like hearing singers take breaths. Often left in the recordings to provide a sense of intimacy like on Keith's new record! Also of course in the studio there are many things done to make sure the vocal is great like multiple takes and excellent control of compression and EQ.
Anyway, the point is it generally takes practice to do it correctly, and while Mick is a master at it, Keith has been almost classic in his disregard for such techniques. So many times you see him run up to the mic at the last minute or leave the proximity of it early to concentrate on his guitar part or whatever. So many live recording of his vocal (even on his solo tunes) cutting in and out of the mix and this is the primary reason why, imo. Many times he even just backs off early and after an awkward moment Mick is left to finish the phrase for him. Lots of examples of this on Happy throughout the years.
The best vocalist are very aware of mic technique and most professional singers learn it early since it is such an important part of their craft. In any case I think alcohol probably had more to do with Rod's Face's mic techniques than anything else. lol He's definitely shown good mic skills since then in any case. You can witness him changing the distance from the mic during the softer and more powerful vocals in this video....if you can stand to get through it.
[www.youtube.com]
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:51
Quote
35love
*Thank you, I'd never thought of it before. My decades long listening history
has been almost all studio recordings (personal reason) and obviously I've no music talent/ no experience hands on.
Meant to add your description was well written, totally visualize---:-)
Quote
GS1978
This is what I love about this board.
Great discussions
Great insight
Not sure if you've scene this Naturalust, but here's a quote from Chris Kimsey from an article referenced in another thread on the Start Me Up vocal session and Mick vs. Keith's mike technique
What did work, when Jagger showed up for a session, was his ability to perform quickly and effectively, completing a song within four or five takes once he'd sorted out the lyrics. In most cases, he already had a verse as well as an idea of the chorus, and he'd repeat the same verse until he came up with more words.
"He'd give it the full performance, moving all over the place," Kimsey confirms. "It was great to watch and equally great to record. He knows how to work a microphone. He might be at the back of the control room, just a bar before the verse, and all of a sudden he's in front of the mic. He backs off in the chorus when he's singing loud, he gets in close when he's singing soft, and he knows what to do. Keith, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. You need a shotgun to get him in front of the mic. He'll wander all over the place while singing, taking an attitude of 'You do your job, you record me.'"
This was never an issue on 'Start Me Up', which, regardless of the image conveyed in the promotional video, actually features Jagger performing all of the backing vocals as well as the lead. "He's very good at sounding like Keith on harmonies," remarks Kimsey.
[www.soundonsound.com]
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:55
Then I wrote:
I love watching Keith's approach to the mic in concert, and have often wondered
if part of his skittishness is related to being electrocuted by one in 1965.
Meanwhile Naturalust replied to GS1978:
Quote
GS1978
"Keith, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. You need a shotgun to get him in front of the mic.
He'll wander all over the place while singing, taking an attitude of 'You do your job, you record me.'"
I love watching Keith's approach to the mic in concert, and have often wondered
if part of his skittishness is related to being electrocuted by one in 1965.
Meanwhile Naturalust replied to GS1978:
Quote
Naturalust
Pretty classic quote of just what I was talking about for sure. Thanks for posting it GS1978! It certainly confirms that Keith's aversion to good mic technique isn't limited to his live performances. I think it may be improving a bit since we got such a decent recording of the vocals on his new record but who knows.
What is interesting about the quote is that is kind of shows that Keith may have never really taken his role as a vocalist very seriously. The microphone is such a key part of a vocalists performance that to say something like "You do your job, you record me" while he runs around is kind of flippant and silly, imo. Pretty frustrating for an engineer. I would have duct taped a mic to the mans face or something or given him a headset mic. LOL Kudos to Kimsey for whatever he did. I'm trying to think of a similar analogy for his guitar playing which he obviously does take very seriously, perhaps 'you plug me in, tune my guitar and set my amp up". Oh wait he probably has people to do all that too. Spoiled brat. LOL
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:59
Then I said:
What era is Chris Kimsey talking about in that quote, NL? I ask because I think it's pretty obvious
that up to the mid-80s (more or less) Keith was a guitarist who also sang sometimes.
From the mid-80s on he started treating his vocal abilities more seriously,
and that's evolved him into a singer/guitarist. The difference is visible on stage and audible in the studio.
Even though his approach to the mic apparently still isn't up to your standards,
I wonder if a lot of people would rather have pro mic technique or be Keith Richards :E
Turner68 said he feels Keith still does the same thing; I beg to differ; and Naturalust suspects
that I love watching Keith no matter what he's doing, which is not incorrect :E
What era is Chris Kimsey talking about in that quote, NL? I ask because I think it's pretty obvious
that up to the mid-80s (more or less) Keith was a guitarist who also sang sometimes.
From the mid-80s on he started treating his vocal abilities more seriously,
and that's evolved him into a singer/guitarist. The difference is visible on stage and audible in the studio.
Even though his approach to the mic apparently still isn't up to your standards,
I wonder if a lot of people would rather have pro mic technique or be Keith Richards :E
Turner68 said he feels Keith still does the same thing; I beg to differ; and Naturalust suspects
that I love watching Keith no matter what he's doing, which is not incorrect :E
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:00
Damn, I just started another thread at your request my dear, I will copy my post here and hope that Bjornulf can delete it.
I'm not sure which era Chris is talking about specifically with sssoul since Chris started as an assistant engineer with them long ago but I'm guessing he is referring the era when Start Me Up was recorded since that song is specifically mentioned....late 70's early 80's.
In any case I'm not critical of Keith as a musician or entertainer...just his mic technique and I'm obviously in good company with Mr. Kimsey. It is what it is mainly just an observation. I just find it a bit peculiar that someone who has 50+ years experience on stage and in the studio hasn't become more comfortable with the standard and accepted methods of working with a microphone. He certainly doesn't approach the guitar with the same rather flippant and casual attitude. I'm sure he got a strong dose of reality when he embarked on his solo career and had to spend considerably more time fronting a band as a singer.
I'm not sure which era Chris is talking about specifically with sssoul since Chris started as an assistant engineer with them long ago but I'm guessing he is referring the era when Start Me Up was recorded since that song is specifically mentioned....late 70's early 80's.
In any case I'm not critical of Keith as a musician or entertainer...just his mic technique and I'm obviously in good company with Mr. Kimsey. It is what it is mainly just an observation. I just find it a bit peculiar that someone who has 50+ years experience on stage and in the studio hasn't become more comfortable with the standard and accepted methods of working with a microphone. He certainly doesn't approach the guitar with the same rather flippant and casual attitude. I'm sure he got a strong dose of reality when he embarked on his solo career and had to spend considerably more time fronting a band as a singer.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:06
I don't think he is intentionally being difficult here. I'd like to think: it's how he has to do it.
This is the way it goes with him- right, the shy, inner whatever (anxiety?)
If you want him to perform live with the pressure, guitar + spotlight on his singing, his singing comes from his body moving.
I'm sure someone (Jimmy Miller?) at some point when needing a consistent vocal cut from him in the studio was able to nicely say: listen mate...and of course, Keith hears what is needed from him,
But on stage? It makes sense in a way. Now Mick, it's completely different (and vanity makes one strive for perfection) Mick should be brilliant w/ the mic, he is the very best front singer on the planet.
This is the way it goes with him- right, the shy, inner whatever (anxiety?)
If you want him to perform live with the pressure, guitar + spotlight on his singing, his singing comes from his body moving.
I'm sure someone (Jimmy Miller?) at some point when needing a consistent vocal cut from him in the studio was able to nicely say: listen mate...and of course, Keith hears what is needed from him,
But on stage? It makes sense in a way. Now Mick, it's completely different (and vanity makes one strive for perfection) Mick should be brilliant w/ the mic, he is the very best front singer on the planet.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:21
Interesting thought 35 love that Keith's singing comes from his body movement, no wonder Wyman was never much of a singer. LOL
Another interesting thing for me to know more about would be what specific microphones Keith and Mick prefer for live performances and what mic's have been used in the studio to capture their best vocal performances.
No doubt some vintage Neumann U47-87 mics were used in the studio and I've seen a large variety of dynamic mics used over the years in their live shows. Mick probably has a favorite mic and as a true pro he probably has some pretty developed opinions on which ones make him sound best. Keith is actually probably pretty sharp about the issue too, however casual he appears to be in their actual useage. lol I mean as an owner of a home studio for many years and considering the studio is his "second home" this kind of information is actually pretty relevant.
Andy Johns has some good interviews out there, perhaps he has spoken about mics and mic techniques, I'll see if I can find and quotes he can add to the discussion.
Another interesting thing for me to know more about would be what specific microphones Keith and Mick prefer for live performances and what mic's have been used in the studio to capture their best vocal performances.
No doubt some vintage Neumann U47-87 mics were used in the studio and I've seen a large variety of dynamic mics used over the years in their live shows. Mick probably has a favorite mic and as a true pro he probably has some pretty developed opinions on which ones make him sound best. Keith is actually probably pretty sharp about the issue too, however casual he appears to be in their actual useage. lol I mean as an owner of a home studio for many years and considering the studio is his "second home" this kind of information is actually pretty relevant.
Andy Johns has some good interviews out there, perhaps he has spoken about mics and mic techniques, I'll see if I can find and quotes he can add to the discussion.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:21
Thanks Naturalust - for starting the other thread for me, for abandoning it, and for clarifying.
I just meant I don't think the good Chris Kimsey's observations about Keith's approach apply so much nowadays.
I think there have been a few different things that have made him more aware of the need
to be in front of the mic when he's supposed to be singing.
I was hunting just now for a statement from some Stones engineer who noted that Mick
tended to lean into the mic when singing loud, which is of course the opposite of the "proper technique".
Whoever it was (Andy Johns? Bob Clearmountain? Chris Kimsey again?) said that watching Mick do this
he realized it came from those early concert days with primitive sound systems and loads of screaming chicks -
Mick just learned to out-sing all that.
I didn't find that, but I did come across this other statement from Bob Clearmountain about Start Me Up,
which has nothing to do with microphones but it's sweet anyway and *almost* on topic:
“I remember [Mick] came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang Start Me Up right in my ear,”
Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing.
He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah, Mick, that's great!
Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’ He was amazing; I have so much respect for him.”
- From [www.mixonline.com]
I just meant I don't think the good Chris Kimsey's observations about Keith's approach apply so much nowadays.
I think there have been a few different things that have made him more aware of the need
to be in front of the mic when he's supposed to be singing.
I was hunting just now for a statement from some Stones engineer who noted that Mick
tended to lean into the mic when singing loud, which is of course the opposite of the "proper technique".
Whoever it was (Andy Johns? Bob Clearmountain? Chris Kimsey again?) said that watching Mick do this
he realized it came from those early concert days with primitive sound systems and loads of screaming chicks -
Mick just learned to out-sing all that.
I didn't find that, but I did come across this other statement from Bob Clearmountain about Start Me Up,
which has nothing to do with microphones but it's sweet anyway and *almost* on topic:
“I remember [Mick] came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang Start Me Up right in my ear,”
Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing.
He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah, Mick, that's great!
Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’ He was amazing; I have so much respect for him.”
- From [www.mixonline.com]
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:37
I don't know if it is an aversion or uneasiness against singing. He plays guitar a similar way, suddenly stopping a couple of bars, holding his fist to his chest.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:47
Yes it is an interesting topic, worthy of it's own thread.
There certainly have been some developments in sound reinforcement technology since those early days that have allowed Mick (and Keith) to develop their techniques more precisely. Mostly much better monitoring, in ear monitors, separate monitor engineers, and in the studio, better and more precise control and use of compression and also improvement in monitoring. In other words plenty of time for hem to get the mic techniques down pat. lol
Didn't find much from Andy John's (yet) just this about Exile:
"As far as microphones on hand I had the normal standard stuff. Some Neumanns, Shures, Beyers … The mikes were OK. It was just these rooms were a bit weird."
and
"Did you have any specific philosophy on recording vocals during “Exile?”
Andy Johns: "That’s a funny question and I don’t want to be rude. If you’re gonna do vocals you put the microphones up that you are familiar with, an Neuman 87, that’s what I used on Mick and Keith. Then you can put a compressor on it and then you record. If it’s not working you search for other ways of doing it. It usually works."
[www.goldminemag.com]
There certainly have been some developments in sound reinforcement technology since those early days that have allowed Mick (and Keith) to develop their techniques more precisely. Mostly much better monitoring, in ear monitors, separate monitor engineers, and in the studio, better and more precise control and use of compression and also improvement in monitoring. In other words plenty of time for hem to get the mic techniques down pat. lol
Didn't find much from Andy John's (yet) just this about Exile:
"As far as microphones on hand I had the normal standard stuff. Some Neumanns, Shures, Beyers … The mikes were OK. It was just these rooms were a bit weird."
and
"Did you have any specific philosophy on recording vocals during “Exile?”
Andy Johns: "That’s a funny question and I don’t want to be rude. If you’re gonna do vocals you put the microphones up that you are familiar with, an Neuman 87, that’s what I used on Mick and Keith. Then you can put a compressor on it and then you record. If it’s not working you search for other ways of doing it. It usually works."
[www.goldminemag.com]
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
schillid
()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:47
There were some photos in a thread a while back called how to hold a microphone.
Mick's old rooster strut ... maybe that was partly just because he shared a mic and was doing it to avoid banging into Keith and Keith's guitar.
Mick's old rooster strut ... maybe that was partly just because he shared a mic and was doing it to avoid banging into Keith and Keith's guitar.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 31, 2015 02:04
Keith uses the mic just like handles the guitar, any other instrument or his writing. Raw, rough and unpolished. The person and the musician comes through. Love it!
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
latebloomer
()
Date: October 31, 2015 02:31
Quote
schillid
There were some photos in a thread a while back called how to hold a microphone.
Mick's old rooster strut ... maybe that was partly just because he shared a mic and was doing it to avoid banging into Keith and Keith's guitar.
Never occured to me before, but that makes a lot of sense.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
MingSubu
()
Date: October 31, 2015 04:10
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: October 31, 2015 07:03
Quote
schillid
There were some photos in a thread a while back called how to hold a microphone.
Mick's old rooster strut ... maybe that was partly just because he shared a mic and was doing it to avoid banging into Keith and Keith's guitar.
I found the thread - but sadly it was a long time ago and 99% of the pictures have vanished.
As a side issue - Mick had a period of using a radio headset mike - which must be a constant fixed distance from his mouth. How did that affect his singing?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-31 07:06 by Green Lady.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 31, 2015 07:11
Quote
Green Lady
As a side issue - Mick had a period of using a radio mike - which must be a constant fixed distance from his mouth. How did that affect his singing?
That is an excellent question Green Lady! I'm not sure the answer without hearing some of those performances. But one of the things that would have been sure to have been used in conjunction with that type of a microphone is pretty heavy compression with would basically soften the loud notes so they didn't overload the system. But it would certainly limit the way he could naturally use the mic to enhance the performance with things like proximity.
Do you remember when exactly when that was?
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: October 31, 2015 10:50
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: October 31, 2015 20:13
Quote
Green Lady
Here in 2006, certainly... But he has clearly decided it doesn't suit him now
[www.youtube.com]
Damn! Another Stones video blocked in my country (USA). YouTube must have received a pretty long list from Eagle Rock. Makes me curious as to what criteria was used to choose which songs would be blocked.
z wrote on another thread:
"Large diaphragm mics are more popular for vocals, aren't they? Yes, the smaller the diaphragm the less off-axis coloration you get. However, small diaphragm condensers have other coloration effects caused by closeness to the source. But we're going a little too off topic here."
Yes no doubt the large diaphragm condensers are much more popular for vocals and have become the standard in most pro studios. They seem to be more forgiving than the small diaphragm ones, which can be brutally honest in the way they reproduce the sound, especially in the higher frequency range. I've actually seen them work great on vocals before so it's certainly not clear cut....I guess it depends on the singer and maybe more specifically the quality of the higher freq. components of their voice.
I generally use the small diaphragm condensers for acoustic guitar and other acoustic instruments like mandolin which have a lot of higher frequency components to the sound but they also work great for overheads and things like cymbals.
Of course experimentation is the best (and most fun) way to record any vocalist or instrument if you've got the time. It's nice to be able to put multiple mics on a vocalist or instrument and then objectively sort through the results later on, choosing one or the other or even a mix of the two. Live sound is a different animal though and everyone pretty much sticks to standard and proven mic selection for obvious reasons.
One thing that is clear important about mic selection is that the better the raw recording you initially get, the better it sounds after mixing. Although helpful, no amount of EQ, effects or other after the fact signal processing can make up for a poorly recorded vocal, imo.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: October 31, 2015 20:52
Oh dear. Well, 2006 or the B-stage seem to be the keys for the headset mike - the only problem is that videos not blocked by Eagle Rock will probably be people's own clips of (mostly) inferior sound quality.
Never mind what he sounds like; Mick just doesn't look right without a mike in his hand.
Never mind what he sounds like; Mick just doesn't look right without a mike in his hand.
Re: The Glimmer Twins' (et al) Microphone Technique
Posted by:
z
()
Date: November 1, 2015 10:52
Here's an example of changes in sound due to different mic positions. with sssoul, the next time you have a spare 4 minutes and 15 seconds, put on your headphones and listen to Tom Waits - House Where Nobody Lives. When you get to the last two lines of the song, at 3:36, there's a change in the sound of the vocals. It's clearly another take. More direct, less room sound.
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