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organicjoe
I always felt sad for Jones, sure the early stuff was great, but why didn’t he understand that Beggar’s Banquet was going to catapult them into The Greatest Rock And Roll Band. Jimmy Miller said that he didn’t record Jones. Which brings me to this: Where would the Stones be if it wasn’t for Miller? Maybe that question is for another thread.

I think that Brian felt that the style they took with Beggar's Banquet would require him to play more guitar and give him less space for adding exotic instruments. Just playing the guitar would have meant that he would loose the one thing that made him "special" in the band and also what made him tick musically.

Even though he manages to bring some of the multiinstrumental stuff to Beggar's Banquet I don't think that the Stones were interested in letting him experiment with that anymore. They wanted the new sound to be rock n roll and nothing else. Jimmy Miller has said that he was told by the Stones to tell Jones to @#$%& off when he showed up with a sitar at a blues session.
In Brian's official statement when it was revealed that he had parted way with the Stones he said that he wanted to make music of his own kind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-27 23:57 by tonterapi.

I'm a big fan of the 1920s jazz musician Bix Beiderbecke. He would elevate songs (that other people wrote) with his otherworldly cornet solos. He was respected by black jazz players, esepcially Louis Armstrong. Bix did write a couple compositions on piano, notable 'In A Mist'. He was described as a dreamer who only cared about music. And he drank himself to death on the drug of his day, prohibition era bathtub gin, at the ripe old age of 28. People had a devil of a time with him, trying to get him to conform, which he never did. Brian was one of those guys. He lifted Stones covers and pop songs to higher levels. Both musicians were Pisces, both were very sensitive, and both couldn't cope with this world. And we are the beneficiaries.

Brian Jones started the band, his image was his lifestyle and it became the image and lifestyle of Mick and Keith and everybody else. Sort of. Jim Morrisson adored him. Why, you might ask and the answer is Brian Jones was himself and he hade the looks, the charm , the devil inside and it was him Anita kidnapped. He is underrated as a bluesguitarist. Little red rooster and Im a king bee and Mona. He is overrated as a multiinstrumentalist, in one way but not the other. As a producer he is underrated. He was the Rolling Stones, their soul. Without him there would be no band, because he was the driving force and then when Mick and Keith made the music (well most of it at least) Brian and Anita with Brians friends and his new instruments made the scene, the life. He is not overrated because he simply cannot be overrated in any way. His image though is misunderstood. Some think he was an angel, others that he was "the @#$%&". He was neither. He was the first modern rock/pop icon, first to die at 27 as a casulaty of the hedonism they belonged in. In that sense it was the others who were free riders on the life style. They were cruel to him, by all accounts. And he was cruel to others and himself, disturbed in some ways. He had to die, there was no other way. I love him but not like the unknowing fans who just saw the bands rock star in 1964-1966, Brian, grin and glare from the stage. Nor like the mothers who think he was an angel. He was a tough bastard in many ways, a driving force, a misunderstood fella, cool defined in the 60s. and then the first ghost of the last year of the 60s. the first one to die in the right way. Genius in some senses. Overrated no, but misunderstood and thus overrated in that context: the multiinstrumentalist wasnt a genius but very good in finding himself in the new instrument and thus put himself in Undr my thumb, Ruby, PIB, NE, 2000 light, Backsteeet girl, I am waiting, Lady Jane, Sad Day, SFM and others, She Smiled Sweetley. The blues numbers. A degree of murder. An interview in 1964 or 1966.

Of course he was the founding member, he taught Jagger to play the harmonica and if it wasn't for him the Stones would probably not exist. But I just don't think that's enough for all the rave around him. Sure, he was the front figure in the really early days but how long did that last, a few years, if even that

That alone is enough.

Sitar on Paint It Black, Recorder on Ruby Tuesday. I am not going to go on.

Though he is not credited as a song writer he brought many ideas to the band and is in no way overated. The Jones era is possibly the best Stones at least studio wise. I listened to the Singles Collection in its entirety recently and Jones is all over it.

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
Tss, after Sugar Blue, Mick Jagger is probably the best harp-player there is.

Is Mick better than Magic Dick?? No, he isn't.

I don't care what Keef says. I've played harp for nearly 38 years and can therefore speak with a modicum of authority on the subject: Compared to Brian Jones, Jagger is a mediocre harp player. His lines are simple and not particularly inspired. Yes, Jagger has improved over time, but he still can't hold a candle to Jones's harp work on the first few albums. This fawning over Jagger's harp playing a load of nonsense.

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ab

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
Tss, after Sugar Blue, Mick Jagger is probably the best harp-player there is.

Is Mick better than Magic Dick?? No, he isn't.

I don't care what Keef says. I've played harp for nearly 38 years and can therefore speak with a modicum of authority on the subject: Compared to Brian Jones, Jagger is a mediocre harp player. His lines are simple and not particularly inspired. Yes, Jagger has improved over time, but he still can't hold a candle to Jones's harp work on the first few albums. This fawning over Jagger's harp playing a load of nonsense.

You really think so? I think Jagger is a true blues harpsman, very soulful, and technically not bad either. Brian was good in the beginning but never really went beyond where he was. Mick did, I think.

I've played harp for 42 years now and there's nothing special with either Brians or Micks harp-playing to be honest...

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i like my paint it black with brian on sitar. i like can't you hear me knocking with taylor's lead. and i like hey negrita with ronnie debuting his skills next there will be threads that mick, keith, charlie, ronnie, bill , ian and taylor are overrated. i love the stones and can't picture them lasting without talent that's graced the band over the decades

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Come On
I've played harp for 42 years now and there's nothing special with either Brians or Micks harp-playing to be honest...

Well, between you and ab that's 80 years.

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ab

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
Tss, after Sugar Blue, Mick Jagger is probably the best harp-player there is.

Is Mick better than Magic Dick?? No, he isn't.

I don't care what Keef says. I've played harp for nearly 38 years and can therefore speak with a modicum of authority on the subject: Compared to Brian Jones, Jagger is a mediocre harp player. His lines are simple and not particularly inspired. Yes, Jagger has improved over time, but he still can't hold a candle to Jones's harp work on the first few albums. This fawning over Jagger's harp playing a load of nonsense.

+ 1, although I like Mick's playing, too. Not very technically skilled, but soulful. Brian was really good, imo.

Maybe Brian Jones is the reason that Keith likes to talk about the art of weaving, that way, no one can get the credit or get the heat for it if it doesnt work. Jones and Taylor may have taken the spotlight away from the things that really matter, the Jagger/Richards cash cow.

While it's good that Brian is appriciated for his work despite his shortcomings as a songwriter and personality, I think the word genius is deployed far too liberally. He understood the blues, he played excellent harmonica and he had a nice touch for experimenting with sounds and finding appropriate instrumentation. He really was at the right place at the right time, as many other great artists. But why drop the g-word all the time? I don't think anyone in the Stones or Beatles, or Elvis or Dylan etc. qualifiy as geniuses.

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Bärs
I don't think anyone in the Stones or Beatles, or Elvis or Dylan etc. qualifiy as geniuses.

Of all the above, the only person I would consider a genius is John Lennon. Brian is no genius, but he was a very clever and inventive musician.

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Come On
I've played harp for 42 years now and there's nothing special with either Brians or Micks harp-playing to be honest...

Look What You've Done, I Just Want to Make Love To You, and 2120 S. Michigan Ave aren't special?

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Bärs
While it's good that Brian is appriciated for his work despite his shortcomings as a songwriter and personality, I think the word genius is deployed far too liberally. He understood the blues, he played excellent harmonica and he had a nice touch for experimenting with sounds and finding appropriate instrumentation. He really was at the right place at the right time, as many other great artists. But why drop the g-word all the time? I don't think anyone in the Stones or Beatles, or Elvis or Dylan etc. qualifiy as geniuses.

So who is geniuses if not Dylan and Lennon? I could think of John Coltrane and Miles Davis also..

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neptune

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Come On
I've played harp for 42 years now and there's nothing special with either Brians or Micks harp-playing to be honest...

Look What You've Done, I Just Want to Make Love To You, and 2120 S. Michigan Ave aren't special?

Not really! I can play that in my sleep...

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Come On

Not really! I can play that in my sleep...

That's not the point. The majority of stones guitar parts are easy to play.

A band is always as good as their singer so how about that Jagger is underrated?


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Come On
A band is always as good as their singer so how about that Jagger is underrated?

??

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24FPS
I'm a big fan of the 1920s jazz musician Bix Beiderbecke. He would elevate songs (that other people wrote) with his otherworldly cornet solos. He was respected by black jazz players, esepcially Louis Armstrong. Bix did write a couple compositions on piano, notable 'In A Mist'. He was described as a dreamer who only cared about music. And he drank himself to death on the drug of his day, prohibition era bathtub gin, at the ripe old age of 28. People had a devil of a time with him, trying to get him to conform, which he never did. Brian was one of those guys. He lifted Stones covers and pop songs to higher levels. Both musicians were Pisces, both were very sensitive, and both couldn't cope with this world. And we are the beneficiaries.

Great post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-28 16:45 by neptune.

Bix and Hank, those were the guys...

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I'm not a Brian fan because I separate the man that he was from his musical abilities. I see him as a mean, envious, vicious person with dreams of grandeur. He was a woman-abuser( not forgivable), and a guy with a huge Napoleon complex...little men sometimes suffer from this! He was small in many ways. I understand completely why Mick and Keith lost patience with him and fortunately they cut him loose before he destroyed the band.

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mickschix
I'm not a Brian fan because I separate the man that he was from his musical abilities. I see him as a mean, envious, vicious person with dreams of grandeur. He was a woman-abuser( not forgivable), and a guy with a huge Napoleon complex...little men sometimes suffer from this! He was small in many ways. I understand completely why Mick and Keith lost patience with him and fortunately they cut him loose before he destroyed the band.

Oh please, like Mick and Keith have been so nice to the ladies! You say Brian would have destroyed the band. Well, I say the band in many ways was destroyed when Brian left.

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neptune

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mickschix
I'm not a Brian fan because I separate the man that he was from his musical abilities. I see him as a mean, envious, vicious person with dreams of grandeur. He was a woman-abuser( not forgivable), and a guy with a huge Napoleon complex...little men sometimes suffer from this! He was small in many ways. I understand completely why Mick and Keith lost patience with him and fortunately they cut him loose before he destroyed the band.

Oh please, like Mick and Keith have been so nice to the ladies! You say Brian would have destroyed the band. Well, I say the band in many ways was destroyed when Brian left.

good. then everyone should be satisfied.

Something is strange when someone starts a thread with "Oh Please"

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mickschix
I'm not a Brian fan because I separate the man that he was from his musical abilities. I see him as a mean, envious, vicious person with dreams of grandeur. He was a woman-abuser( not forgivable), and a guy with a huge Napoleon complex...little men sometimes suffer from this! He was small in many ways. I understand completely why Mick and Keith lost patience with him and fortunately they cut him loose before he destroyed the band.

Charlie Watts once compared Brian's personality with John Lennon's and I think that's very much what it was in reality. John could also be a cruel bastard at times. Envious? He was hardly alone in being that. Dreams of grandeur? He wanted to get a blues band going and be somewhat successful.

His treatment of women - especially Anita - is not as black and white as it seems. None of them have expressed any anger against him (AFAIK) wich would be easy to do - especially 40 years later. Rumours say that Anita had a photo of Brian by her bed when she lived with Keith and she has also sort of defended him in interviews. And..again. Brian isn't the only famous person that treated women badly.
I don't defend him for beating women! But I do find it weird that he still gets shit for it while others like Ron Wood and Ozzy has been "excused"!?

Brian wasn't anywhere near to destroy the band as they worked in the studio no matter if he showed up or not. Brian was fed up with them and they were fed up with him. I'm pretty convinced that his "sacking" was a mutual agreement.
But winners write history as they say and for Mick and Keith it's easy to do so since Brian is dead. We will never hear his side of the story.

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Come On

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neptune

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Come On
I've played harp for 42 years now and there's nothing special with either Brians or Micks harp-playing to be honest...

Look What You've Done, I Just Want to Make Love To You, and 2120 S. Michigan Ave aren't special?

Not really! I can play that in my sleep...

Technically I am a better guitarist than Jones, Richards and Wood.

Still I got to go to work every morning.

Mathijs

There are big geniuses and little geniuses. Brian was a little genius. There was something in his playing on slide and on the multi-instruments that was beyond normal, with an almost ethereal, non-verbal emotion to them. John Lennon, to me, was a big genius, a powerful poet with probably the best soul wrenching voice in rock and roll. Jimi Hendrix was an other worldly big genius. In time I have managed to hear a lot of Jimi's influences, from Earl Hooker to Buddy Guy. But what Jimi did with them was totally original. I think the same can be said for some of Brian Jones' slide solos. No one ever claimed that Brian was a master recorder/marimba/accordian player. Lennon said he himself wasn't a great instrumentalist, but that he was an artist who could pick up an instrument and create something interesting with it.

Other rock geniuses, in my humble opinion, are Brian Wilson and Kurt Cobain. I'm sure there are others, but those stand out. Maybe my criteria is originality and emotional depth. And every one of them, including the Brian, the little genius, struggled mightily with that genius. That they seem to be speaking from another world is what makes them so seductive.

Dylan-Young-Zappa for christs sake...

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More Hot Rocks
Something is strange when someone starts a thread with "Oh Please"

Oh please . . .