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CousinC
I often wondered, - did anyone hear from Newman-Jones again after the late 70's?
Still alive? What is he doing?

He is still allive and well, living in Austin, TX, and a small scale luthier mainly working on acoustics. I met him a couple of years ago at a guitar fair. He still builds the (second) Keith Richards guitar if requested. He still gets invited when the Stones play Austin, and is in contact with Wood, Richards and Wyman occasionally.

Mathijs

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Mainman

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skipstone
Supposedly, as I've read in a few places over the years, it started in Hawaii.

Read where?

There, I highlighted it for you. In various interviews with Keith yet alone guitar magazines that talk about that tuning. What, you think Keith Richards invented that? Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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ChrisM

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Mainman

It is a fact that TNJ met up with Keith in 1969.

OK, if it is a fact then please provide the details of this meeting. You have thus far not provided any substantiation to the claim you make here, which is in sharp contradiction to what myself and many others here know, or perhaps assume is a better word, to be true. Namely, that Keith was using the open G tuning before he met Newman-Jones and managed to get a great sound out of it. Please provide the source(s) for the statements you have touted as 'fact'

Page 159, paragraph 2 of David Dalton's "The Rolling Stones The First Twenty Years" has it in plain black and white.

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skipstone

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Mainman

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skipstone
Supposedly, as I've read in a few places over the years, it started in Hawaii.

Read where?

There, I highlighted it for you. In various interviews with Keith yet alone guitar magazines that talk about that tuning. What, you think Keith Richards invented that? Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I bet you've imagined a few things in a few places over the years as well!

Hee hee hee

I said "invented", not "imagined".

Big difference. Some people might be or are convinced that they think Keith invented open G 5 string tuning because they've imagined it.

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Mainman

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ChrisM

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Mainman

It is a fact that TNJ met up with Keith in 1969.

OK, if it is a fact then please provide the details of this meeting. You have thus far not provided any substantiation to the claim you make here, which is in sharp contradiction to what myself and many others here know, or perhaps assume is a better word, to be true. Namely, that Keith was using the open G tuning before he met Newman-Jones and managed to get a great sound out of it. Please provide the source(s) for the statements you have touted as 'fact'

Page 159, paragraph 2 of David Dalton's "The Rolling Stones The First Twenty Years" has it in plain black and white.

Could post the relevant passage? I don't have the book and I'm not likely to buy it either...

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ChrisM

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Mainman

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ChrisM

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Mainman

It is a fact that TNJ met up with Keith in 1969.

OK, if it is a fact then please provide the details of this meeting. You have thus far not provided any substantiation to the claim you make here, which is in sharp contradiction to what myself and many others here know, or perhaps assume is a better word, to be true. Namely, that Keith was using the open G tuning before he met Newman-Jones and managed to get a great sound out of it. Please provide the source(s) for the statements you have touted as 'fact'

Page 159, paragraph 2 of David Dalton's "The Rolling Stones The First Twenty Years" has it in plain black and white.

Could post the relevant passage? I don't have the book and I'm not likely to buy it either...

Pity...you might learn something from it!

Better than all those expensive picture books!

Or perhaps the crackdown on incapacity benefits is starting to hit!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-25 02:57 by Mainman.

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skipstone
I said "invented", not "imagined".

Big difference. Some people might be or are convinced that they think Keith invented open G 5 string tuning because they've imagined it.

Innovation is all about imagination.

And you can't get THAT from Wikipaedia.

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Mainman

Pity...you might learn something from it!

Better than all those expensive picture books!

Or perhaps the crackdown on incapacity benefits is starting to hit!

I might but since you are seemingly unwilling to post the passage and I'm not going to buy the book we may never know. However, the fact that something appears in print does not necessarily follow that it is true, as you yourself attested in regards to Keith's 'Life'. No one else here that I have seen has corroborated what you say and so without such substantiation I would have to view such a claim with some skepticism. Also I cannot see the relevance of 'incapacity benefits' to the discussion at hand, though if you can then I congratulate you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-25 05:27 by ChrisM.

I happen to have that book. There's a rather lengthy article written by TNJ called "Guitar Maker By Appointment to the Rolling Stones" that does indeed start on page 159. Unlike many of the other articles that comprise the Dalton book, this particular article doesn't appear to have been published in any previous magazine or book. (There are other articles reprinted from Creem and Guitar Player, etc. as well as Saturday Review and Warhol's Interview, etc. This book is a worthwhile addition to your Stones library if you can pick it up used on the cheap. It's from 1981.)

Anyway, paragraph #2 of this article follows:

"While going to college I'd read an article in Eye magazine on the Stones written by someone called Stanley Booth. Later on I ended up in Memphis, selling clothes, and cashed a check for a man who turned out to be Stanley Booth. Told him I thought his article was great, etc. This eventually led to my meeting the Stones in '69 on tour, and spurred me to ultimately go to Europe in '71. Two hundred bucks round trip!"

The article continues, and it's clear his real involvement started here, with the '71 trip. I'm not sure there's a whole lot that happened at that '69 meeting. But these are TNJ's words.

The genuine open G guitar is rather old indeed.
The open tuning came from the banjo: d-g-d-g-b-d.

There where more open tunings and even 5-string banjos and acoustic guitars, and the Lute, for a several 100 years ago already.
They often were double stringed though.

No doubt some unknown freak(s) did it before, but Keith was the first famous player who removed the lower d as far as I know.

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rocker1
I happen to have that book. There's a rather lengthy article written by TNJ called "Guitar Maker By Appointment to the Rolling Stones" that does indeed start on page 159. Unlike many of the other articles that comprise the Dalton book, this particular article doesn't appear to have been published in any previous magazine or book. (There are other articles reprinted from Creem and Guitar Player, etc. as well as Saturday Review and Warhol's Interview, etc. This book is a worthwhile addition to your Stones library if you can pick it up used on the cheap. It's from 1981.)

Anyway, paragraph #2 of this article follows:

"While going to college I'd read an article in Eye magazine on the Stones written by someone called Stanley Booth. Later on I ended up in Memphis, selling clothes, and cashed a check for a man who turned out to be Stanley Booth. Told him I thought his article was great, etc. This eventually led to my meeting the Stones in '69 on tour, and spurred me to ultimately go to Europe in '71. Two hundred bucks round trip!"

The article continues, and it's clear his real involvement started here, with the '71 trip. I'm not sure there's a whole lot that happened at that '69 meeting. But these are TNJ's words.

It doesn't say if he met Keith ot not, either.

and what about Ry C. ?

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Amsterdamned
The genuine open G guitar is rather old indeed.
The open tuning came from the banjo: d-g-d-g-b-d.

There where more open tunings and even 5-string banjos and acoustic guitars,and the Lute,for a several 100 years ago already.
They were double stringed though.

Not quite. The six string banjo is normally tuned to concert tuning, the same as a guitar: EADGBE.

The five string banjo, which has four melody strings and one drone string starting at the fifth fret, is since the 1830's tuned to GCGBD, GCGCD or Mountain Minor or Modal GDGCD. In bluegrass music since the '30's, where a fiddle is the main instrument, the banjo is tuned to G: GDGBD or open D: F#DF#AD. The four string banjo is called Tenor, and is tuned CGBD or DGBE, Chicago tuning.

The open G tuning is derived from Mexicans working in Hawaii. The Hawaiians developed various slack-key tunings, one of the them the six-string open G tuning called taro patch. Through this, the various open tunings worked his way up to the bluesmen in Chicago.

Richards took the open G from Ry Cooder, and to my knowledge was indeed the first to apply five string open G tuning to a guitar.

Mathijs

Didn't Keith also refer to open G as an ancient russian way of tuning the guitar as well? I think it was one of the Guitar Player-interviews.

Doesn't TNJ also mention in that interview that he showed all these Stones' open G riffs on a banjo to a 'traditional' banjo player, and he was very impressed. It's a long time ago since I read it, so I could be wrong.

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Koen
Doesn't TNJ also mention in that interview that he showed all these Stones' open G riffs on a banjo to a 'traditional' banjo player, and he was very impressed. It's a long time ago since I read it, so I could be wrong.

...but he drew a line at presenting the technique to chronically bored, mentally retarded, unemployable gardeners with more time on their hands than sense!

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned
The genuine open G guitar is rather old indeed.
The open tuning came from the banjo: d-g-d-g-b-d.

There where more open tunings and even 5-string banjos and acoustic guitars,and the Lute,for a several 100 years ago already.
They were double stringed though.

Not quite. The six string banjo is normally tuned to concert tuning, the same as a guitar: EADGBE.

The five string banjo, which has four melody strings and one drone string starting at the fifth fret, is since the 1830's tuned to GCGBD, GCGCD or Mountain Minor or Modal GDGCD. In bluegrass music since the '30's, where a fiddle is the main instrument, the banjo is tuned to G: GDGBD or open D: F#DF#AD. The four string banjo is called Tenor, and is tuned CGBD or DGBE, Chicago tuning.

The open G tuning is derived from Mexicans working in Hawaii. The Hawaiians developed various slack-key tunings, one of the them the six-string open G tuning called taro patch. Through this, the various open tunings worked his way up to the bluesmen in Chicago.

Richards took the open G from Ry Cooder, and to my knowledge was indeed the first to apply five string open G tuning to a guitar.

Mathijs

You come close... that's a wikipedia page I read in Dutch.

There is another one mentioning the history of the Spanish classical guitar,and the Lute related to tunings, in English

And we have got another one,if people are interested:

[guitarsi.com]

You're right , Keith took the open tuning from Ry, however it's hard to believe both players where not aware of the open tuning of string instruments,that goes back to at least the middle ages and even the ancient harp,as there are lot's of books written about it.I must for ever guitar player to read about it, as standard tuning in fact is also an open tuning:Emin7/ad4., thus very relative......

As far as I recall, Ry preferred the lower 6th D string.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-25 17:08 by Amsterdamned.

when exactly did keith take of the sixth string for good ?
the 69 tour was played on 6 strings surely (HTW) ? but brown sugar etc with 5 during the same time at the Muscle Shoals Sound Studio ?


btw this is all very interresting , definately , but we are no further with naming more 5 string openg players.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-25 16:51 by straycatblues73.

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straycatblues73
btw this is all very interresting , definately , but we are no further with naming more 5 string openg players.

Never heard of others. Except probably some fans who try to get the exact same equipment believing they will sound like Keith. Or maybe some players in tribute bands.

I thought I was the only one here actually having a laugh until I heard wikipedia mentioned!

Now I discover that we have the blind leading the blind.

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Mainman
I thought I was the only one here actually having a laugh until I heard wikipedia mentioned!

Now I discover that we have the blind leading the blind.

You might visit a local bookstore about the history of Guitar, Mandoline and Lute tunings .
The open G is one of the countless tunings,apart from Cooder and Richards of course,as
this is IORR.ORG.

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rocker1
Anyway, paragraph #2 of this article follows:

"While going to college I'd read an article in Eye magazine on the Stones written by someone called Stanley Booth. Later on I ended up in Memphis, selling clothes, and cashed a check for a man who turned out to be Stanley Booth. Told him I thought his article was great, etc. This eventually led to my meeting the Stones in '69 on tour, and spurred me to ultimately go to Europe in '71. Two hundred bucks round trip!"

The article continues, and it's clear his real involvement started here, with the '71 trip. I'm not sure there's a whole lot that happened at that '69 meeting. But these are TNJ's words.

Thanks for posting this Rocker. If the article is indeed accurate, then it seems Newman-Jones first met the Stones during the '69 tour, well after 'Honky Tonk Women' was recorded. This does not seem to corroborate what MainMain says: "Basically, whenever TNJ was playing Stones songs to himself, he was finding that his sound was a great deal better than anything Keith had been achieving on record" and "Yes, Keith had experimented with 5 string open tuning but without much success." The sound and rhythmic phrasing Keith achieved on 'Honky Tonk Woemen' could hardly be called 'unsuccessful' so the question remains. What is the basis for these statements? MainMan, back to you...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-25 18:41 by ChrisM.

Well probably TNJ meant that when he played 5-string open G on a native 5 string guitar with 5 poles pickups, it sounded better than on a 6 string guitar with the 6th string removed. It would fit with MainMan's pickup details and I think I remember reading about it.

Perhaps gwen, but none of that jells with the comments I quoted in my previous post. I only ask that MainMan provide more than insinuations to back up what he says...

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gwen
Well probably TNJ meant that when he played 5-string open G on a native 5 string guitar with 5 poles pickups, it sounded better than on a 6 string guitar with the 6th string removed. It would fit with MainMan's pickup details and I think I remember reading about it.

But...the pickups on the TNJ fice string guitars where regular six-string units, not modified to five-string or special wound units. The '73 TNJ had a standard PAF at the bridge and a standard P90 at the neck. The '79 model was build in two versions: one with two standard PAF pickups, and one with two EMG pickups (no polepieces visible). Even keith's '74 Zemaitis 5-string had a standard PAF unit with 6 pole pieces. It is unknown whether this was a PAF or a DiMarzio DP103.

The only 5-string guitar to feature special wound pickups was his Travis Bean TB2000A he used with the Barbarians.

Mathijs

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straycatblues73
when exactly did keith take of the sixth string for good ?
the 69 tour was played on 6 strings surely (HTW) ? but brown sugar etc with 5 during the same time at the Muscle Shoals Sound Studio ?


btw this is all very interresting , definately , but we are no further with naming more 5 string openg players.

On the '69 tour he played five-string open G, the low E was removed. There's some pics from rehearsals at Steve Stills house of the Custom LP with five strings. From top of my mind at Hyde Park he still had the low E string.

Mathijs

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dcba

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TheBoss918
I believe Page used it on "That's the Way"

On "Dancing Days" too...

And "In My Time of Dying"

[thepowergoats.com]

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Mathijs


On the '69 tour he played five-string open G, the low E was removed. There's some pics from rehearsals at Steve Stills house of the Custom LP with five strings. From top of my mind at Hyde Park he still had the low E string.

Mathijs

Wow, didn't know that about Hyde Park. Cool.