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Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: KSIE ()
Date: February 1, 2011 00:24

It's certainly a track that gets talked-about:


[www.iorr.org]

I love the solo, and I really like the track.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: The Mez ()
Date: February 1, 2011 00:41

Awful; one of their worst. Tuneless MEZ

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Date: February 1, 2011 01:28

Yes, I think that StonesTod and Gazza both like this song.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: February 1, 2011 03:08

Quote
LeonidP
I didn't list Back To Zero since everyone agrees that one sucks.

Whoa, wait just a gosh-darn moment before you go making sweeping generalizations about what "everyone" agrees on! There are those among us -- myself included -- who dig the righteous funk that is BTZ!

Drew

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: MadMax ()
Date: February 1, 2011 03:23

How can everybody slag off Dirty Work? There's only one bad song on it and that's back to zero.

Hold Back is a great tune! All the anger and emotions in this album, NO ONE can touch it.

Dirty Work is a lot better than anything else released in the 80's anyway.

You're a rag trade girl, You're the queen of porn, You're the easiest lay on the white house lawn!!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: microvibe ()
Date: February 1, 2011 04:52

horrendous!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Date: February 1, 2011 12:05

Quote
71Tele
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Some great guitar playing in there. Seems to be forgotten or overlooked, because of Mick's vocals, Charlie's drum sound etc.

IMO, the guitars are top notch. The track is mediocre at best, but nowhere near as bad as many on this board point out.

It's "forgetten or overlooked" because the song stinks.

I know you think the song stinks already, Tele. But as a Stones fan, do you really think Keith's licks on this track stinks?

It doesn't have to be either superb or horrendous, you know. There's always (or at least, very often) some good stuff in there for the ones who'll listen...

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: audun-eg ()
Date: February 1, 2011 12:55

The song could have been good, but it seems Jagger didn't take time to find a suitable melody. He's just throwing/spitting out words.

The production is dreadful as many have pointed out. The guitars by themselves are cool, but that's about it.

[www.reverbnation.com]

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: February 1, 2011 16:07

Quote
DandelionPowderman
.... But as a Stones fan, do you really think Keith's licks on this track stinks?
...

not addressed to me, but i'll answer anyway. yes, i do think it stinks. i see posts about the great guitar solo & the back & forth weaving, but to me it sounds so lame and uninspired & goes nowhere. compare it to a song like Respectable and you'll see far superior guitar work & weaving. not to mention, the lyrics, as w/ most songs on this album, are god awful.

Hold Back... sorry but I just can't listen to it anymore.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: February 1, 2011 16:15

Quote
drewmaster
Quote
LeonidP
I didn't list Back To Zero since everyone agrees that one sucks.

Whoa, wait just a gosh-darn moment before you go making sweeping generalizations about what "everyone" agrees on! There are those among us -- myself included -- who dig the righteous funk that is BTZ!

Drew

Seriously? I have nothing against funky numbers if they're good. I love songs like Hot Stuff & Dance, but Back To Zero I think is the worst song of all time, by any band. And I'm not making a generalization about what everyone agrees on ... check the posts about this track - of course there will be exceptions but if there were a Stones poll on the worst track, this one wins, hands down!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Date: February 1, 2011 16:27

Quote
LeonidP
Quote
DandelionPowderman
.... But as a Stones fan, do you really think Keith's licks on this track stinks?
...

not addressed to me, but i'll answer anyway. yes, i do think it stinks. i see posts about the great guitar solo & the back & forth weaving, but to me it sounds so lame and uninspired & goes nowhere. compare it to a song like Respectable and you'll see far superior guitar work & weaving. not to mention, the lyrics, as w/ most songs on this album, are god awful.

Hold Back... sorry but I just can't listen to it anymore.

You think the rhythm guitars on Respectable are better than on Hold Back? For me, that's uncomprehendable, as much as I love Respectable from my favourite album SG.

The solo is nothing special on Hold Back. Keith's groove and sound is, imo. It's downright mean and funky to me. But each to his own.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: February 1, 2011 17:51

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
71Tele
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Some great guitar playing in there. Seems to be forgotten or overlooked, because of Mick's vocals, Charlie's drum sound etc.

IMO, the guitars are top notch. The track is mediocre at best, but nowhere near as bad as many on this board point out.

It's "forgetten or overlooked" because the song stinks.

I know you think the song stinks already, Tele. But as a Stones fan, do you really think Keith's licks on this track stinks?

It doesn't have to be either superb or horrendous, you know. There's always (or at least, very often) some good stuff in there for the ones who'll listen...

To answer your question, I can't listen to just guitars. The whole song has to work. Good guitar licks in the service of a bad tune are wasted and give me no real pleasure.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: February 1, 2011 17:55

I bet Hold Back is a song that Beatles-haters love...it's like something with the lack of tune ...
smoking smiley

2 1 2 0

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: February 1, 2011 18:01

Quote
MadMax
Hold Back is a great tune!

there's a tune after all? Where has it been hiding for 25 years?

Open your mouth, say "aaaaaah" and I'll take a look for it....

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: February 1, 2011 18:33

Why does Bad songs get so many responses, Gimme Shelter only got one page +2

__________________________

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: StonesTod ()
Date: February 1, 2011 19:03

Quote
NICOS
Why does Bad songs get so many responses, Gimme Shelter only got one page +2

there's much more passion involved when it comes to bad songs. good songs? well, it's the stones, so there's no surprise there....just listen and enjoy.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: cc ()
Date: February 1, 2011 21:23

Quote
Gazza
Quote
MadMax
Hold Back is a great tune!

there's a tune after all? Where has it been hiding for 25 years?

Open your mouth, say "aaaaaah" and I'll take a look for it....

maybe that's what jagger's hoping to achieve on this track?

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: MadMax ()
Date: February 2, 2011 02:22

Gazza come on Man, you sound like you're a footballer like me, come on, there's a lot worse songs in the cataloge than Hold Back.

Don't slag off DW, it's the most Keef-inspired Stones record of all time and Charlie is on smack, how much more apocalyptic can it get?!?!?!!?

1. EOMS 2. Beggars 3. Some Girls 4. Emotional rescue 5. Dirty Work.

Nuff said.

You're a rag trade girl, You're the queen of porn, You're the easiest lay on the white house lawn!!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: February 2, 2011 02:32

Quote
MadMax
Gazza come on Man, you sound like you're a footballer like me, come on, there's a lot worse songs in the cataloge than Hold Back.

1. EOMS 2. Beggars 3. Some Girls 4. Emotional rescue 5. Dirty Work.

Nuff said.

If you say so. Apologies for having an opinion of my own. How dare I think its garbage. Silly me.

Don't slag off DW, it's the most Keef-inspired Stones record of all time and Charlie is on smack, how much more apocalyptic can it get?!?!?!!?

Maybe I'm weird, but I listen to a record in the hope that the songs are good. If I want something apocalyptic, I'll read the book of Revelation.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: February 2, 2011 03:18

Listened to the track once again. I think the Stones plan with "Dirty Work" was the same as with C S Blues: Let's see if thet dare to release this? Unfortunatelly, they did this time!

And I don't think the Stones cared: they fulfilled their deal (or did they really?) and got the dollar checks!

I listened to Mick's lyrics on the song and they remind me of the lyrics of songs on his solo-works, songs like "Let's work" for example. It's very much "Carpe Diem", take your chances, catch the day, no one is going to do it for you! Very much in line with the political agenda in the Western World in the 80's (neoliberalism). And still is by the way!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: tomcat2006 ()
Date: February 2, 2011 03:56

Oh dear, I quite like Hold Back. And Fight. So I'm in a minority.

I realise they are low points of course... but they are still loads better than Back to Zero, Suck On the Jugular, Already Over Me/Always Suffering (the same song twice on one album) and a few other duff ones.

Especially good in the gym - pumps up the blood big time.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: cc ()
Date: February 2, 2011 04:25

Quote
Stoneage
I listened to Mick's lyrics on the song and they remind me of the lyrics of songs on his solo-works, songs like "Let's work" for example. It's very much "Carpe Diem", take your chances, catch the day, no one is going to do it for you! Very much in line with the political agenda in the Western World in the 80's (neoliberalism). And still is by the way!

yes, there's a sense of self-justification in the songs you mention, and perhaps a nearly buried feeling of guilt for being so lucky ("in love" ), whereas before he would laugh it off. In this way, his motivation on "Sweet Neo Con" is basically the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-02 05:30 by cc.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Slimharpo ()
Date: February 2, 2011 04:34

I never liked this song. Lyrics and vocals are especially bad. Just not Rock and Roll lyrics "If you look in your history books..... Stalin and Roosevelt they both took their chances." Feel like a teacher is talking to me. Not the rock and roll lyrics I that I think fit the song.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: EddieByword ()
Date: February 2, 2011 05:00

Quote
Slimharpo
I never liked this song. Lyrics and vocals are especially bad. Just not Rock and Roll lyrics "If you look in your history books..... Stalin and Roosevelt they both took their chances." Feel like a teacher is talking to me. Not the rock and roll lyrics I that I think fit the song.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel like a teacher is talking to me.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I got a feeling (Although I agree maybe not suitable for an Stones album) but a get the feeling this mentality might be a spill over from his family life...(Getting re-caught up in O-levels etc.) Jade being that awkward age of 14....and him having to straighten her out for being rebellious......obviously a complete role reversal.......she got kicked out of an exclusive boarding school around that time....or maybe not long after........seems he got fed up of the teacher role by 1987 though....Lyrics from Primitive cool...........

A place far in the future
And faces from the past
And children reading history books
Their faces light and laugh
It all seems so primitive
How did you survive?
It all seemed so different then
How did you stay alive?
Did you walk cool in the fifties daddy?
Was it black and white?
Did you play jazz all night?
Was it really so wonderful?
Did you walk cool in the fifties daddy?
Did you dress like james dean?
Did you wear dungarees?
Did you dance to the rhumba?

Was it all just crazy fashion?
I said oh yeah
Did you live life with a passion?
I said oh yeah

Does it all have some strange meaning?
Can it change my life today?
Or is it all so much flotsam and jetsam?
Tell me right away

Did you walk cool in the sixties daddy?
Did you fight in the war?
Or did you chase all the whores
On the rock and roll rumble?
Did you walk cool in the sixties daddy?
Did you fight in the war?
Did you break all the laws
That were ready to crumble?

Was it just a crazy fashion?
I said oh yeah
Did you live life with a passion?
I said oh yeah

Does it have some inner meaning?
Can it change my life today?
Or is it all so much flotsam and jetsam?
Tell me right away

Well I think you’ve got it figured
Go check it out yourself
Cause I’ve had it playing teacher for today

Did you walk cool primitive cool?
Did you know dr. king?
Was he ever so humble?
Did you walk cool primitive cool?
Did you break all the laws
That were ready to crumble?

A place far in the future
And faces from the past
And children reading history books
Their faces light and laugh
It all seems so primitive
How did you survive?
It all seemed so different then
How did you stay alive?

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: February 2, 2011 05:28

Quote
Gazza
Quote
MadMax
Gazza come on Man, you sound like you're a footballer like me, come on, there's a lot worse songs in the cataloge than Hold Back.

1. EOMS 2. Beggars 3. Some Girls 4. Emotional rescue 5. Dirty Work.

Nuff said.

If you say so. Apologies for having an opinion of my own. How dare I think its garbage. Silly me.

Don't slag off DW, it's the most Keef-inspired Stones record of all time and Charlie is on smack, how much more apocalyptic can it get?!?!?!!?

Maybe I'm weird, but I listen to a record in the hope that the songs are good. If I want something apocalyptic, I'll read the book of Revelation.

Maybe having an overly-Keith-inspired record wasn't such a good thing. Too many crap songs, too many crap lyrics. 90% of the songs Keith "wrote" (remember, he bragged about not writing songs any more in the traditional sense) were devoid of melody and depended too much on riffs. Fortunately, he went against that trend occasionally and wrote some nice ballads ("Sleep Tonight", "All About You", "Slipping Away" ) but his rock songwriting was actually pretty awful - see "Main Offender" for an example of lots of Keith songs without much inspiration. If DW proved anything, it proved you needed an inspired and engaged Jagger to help turn some of Keith's more raw ideas into something palatable. Their whole system of working together collapsed on DW, and it shows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-02 05:30 by 71Tele.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: cc ()
Date: February 2, 2011 05:33

Quote
Slimharpo
I never liked this song. Lyrics and vocals are especially bad. Just not Rock and Roll lyrics "If you look in your history books..... Stalin and Roosevelt they both took their chances." Feel like a teacher is talking to me. Not the rock and roll lyrics I that I think fit the song.

fwiw, I suspect Chris Jagger is responsible for the Encyclopedia Brittanica references. He's credited on "Blinded by Love" for assistance, I believe, and it has the same sort of thing.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: February 2, 2011 05:36

Quote
MadMax
Gazza come on Man, you sound like you're a footballer like me, come on, there's a lot worse songs in the cataloge than Hold Back.

Don't slag off DW, it's the most Keef-inspired Stones record of all time and Charlie is on smack, how much more apocalyptic can it get?!?!?!!?

1. EOMS 2. Beggars 3. Some Girls 4. Emotional rescue 5. Dirty Work.

Nuff said.

Are you trying to say that DW is in the same league as EOMS, BB and Some Girls? Among the albums I would put ahead of Dirty Work:

Sticky Fingers
Let It Bleed
Aftermath
Tattoo You
Between The Buttons
Get Yer Ya Yas Out
December's Children
Out Of Our Heads
Now
Undercover
Steel Wheels

...and I sincerley doubt Charlie would look back on his heroin addiction quite as fondly as you do.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: February 2, 2011 05:44

I think the lyrics on Mick's solo-works, like Primitive Cool, were unusually personal, mature and not just the standard R&R cliches (like on Bigger Bang, with cocks, chasing girls and anal-sex). The funny thing is when asked about it (in an interview) he didn't confess to that. He was asked about the song Primitive cool - if that was about his children asking him how it was beeing young in the 50's and 60's? His answer was that it was not about that and that his children never asked him about it. That's your typical Mick! Always elusive!

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Posted by: vermontoffender ()
Date: February 2, 2011 11:09

Yeah...the production is awful, and Jagger is definitely in annoying growl mode, but the MUSIC is raw and funky. Keith and Charlie are playing with an energy that is sorely lacking on the milquetoast Steel Wheels.

As for the lack of melody nonsense....who f'n cares? The carefully crafted melodies on SW were just as annoying as the lack thereof on Hold Back.

Re: Track Talk: Hold Back
Date: February 2, 2011 11:34

Quote
71Tele
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
71Tele
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Some great guitar playing in there. Seems to be forgotten or overlooked, because of Mick's vocals, Charlie's drum sound etc.

IMO, the guitars are top notch. The track is mediocre at best, but nowhere near as bad as many on this board point out.

It's "forgetten or overlooked" because the song stinks.

I know you think the song stinks already, Tele. But as a Stones fan, do you really think Keith's licks on this track stinks?

It doesn't have to be either superb or horrendous, you know. There's always (or at least, very often) some good stuff in there for the ones who'll listen...

To answer your question, I can't listen to just guitars. The whole song has to work. Good guitar licks in the service of a bad tune are wasted and give me no real pleasure.

I understand that. However, I'm having great pleasure listening to harmonies created by the bass and guitars even on Cherry Oh Baby.

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