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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Noodling? You're saying that he just plays without a purpose?

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Noodling? You're saying that he just plays without a purpose?

That would have been great and have shown some real one-take improvisation skills.
I don't know how Keith recorded it, one take, 4 takes? At least to me Keith gives the impression that just like Taylor, it's a one take noodle-fest Every note has its place, without thinking. .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-25 15:29 by TheflyingDutchman.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-25 17:59 by TheflyingDutchman.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Average Stones Fan ? Well, Jagger playing guitar on FF is mentioned in Roy Carr`s Illustrated Biography , published in 1976/77 . One of the best Books about the Stones, for sure at the time of publishing. The average or very interested fan knew the personal of FF.
And yes, as a guitarplayer or player other instruments you can identify a musician , sometimes in opposite of what the Books are saying. Heaven is for sure played by Jagger.
Another example is Highwire. When it was released I was thinking great, but where is Ronnie Wood? Just playing the solo? You can hear that the rythm is not played by Ronnie but Mick/Keith. You don`t need any books to know that...

Tom

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electricmud

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Average Stones Fan ? Well, Jagger playing guitar on FF is mentioned in Roy Carr`s Illustrated Biography , published in 1976/77 . One of the best Books about the Stones, for sure at the time of publishing. The average or very interested fan knew the personal of FF.
And yes, as a guitarplayer or player other instruments you can identify a musician , sometimes in opposite of what the Books are saying. Heaven is for sure played by Jagger.
Another example is Highwire. When it was released I was thinking great, but where is Ronnie Wood? Just playing the solo? You can hear that the rythm is not played by Ronnie but Mick/Keith. You don`t need any books to know that...

Tom

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Sad Sad Sad is another example, btw. Very easy to hear it's not Keith, even though it's a classic open G-riff.

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DandelionPowderman

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electricmud

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Average Stones Fan ? Well, Jagger playing guitar on FF is mentioned in Roy Carr`s Illustrated Biography , published in 1976/77 . One of the best Books about the Stones, for sure at the time of publishing. The average or very interested fan knew the personal of FF.
And yes, as a guitarplayer or player other instruments you can identify a musician , sometimes in opposite of what the Books are saying. Heaven is for sure played by Jagger.
Another example is Highwire. When it was released I was thinking great, but where is Ronnie Wood? Just playing the solo? You can hear that the rythm is not played by Ronnie but Mick/Keith. You don`t need any books to know that...

Tom

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Sad Sad Sad is another example, btw. Very easy to hear it's not Keith, even though it's a classic open G-riff.

Oeps: I'm referring to the Studio version. When I heard it at the time I just took it for granted that the intro was played by Keith. I think most people did at the time- I never looked on the record sleeve who played what.

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DandelionPowderman

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Thinking about that -we did have the LA Forum video in 1983 or so...that's more than 25 years ago, unfortunately.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Thinking about that -we did have the LA Forum video in 1983 or so...that's more than 25 years ago, unfortunately.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Thinking about that -we did have the LA Forum video in 1983 or so...that's more than 25 years ago, unfortunately.

Mathijs

I think You (Mathijs) and Bård are a bit younger and definitely a different generation Stones fan than me. I basically stopped following them after Black and Blue. All the concerts and songs you are talking here, I hardly ever heard or saw them. So my remark "25 years" could easily be 40 years, I don't remember exactly.

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TheflyingDutchman

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DandelionPowderman

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electricmud

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TheflyingDutchman

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Average Stones Fan ? Well, Jagger playing guitar on FF is mentioned in Roy Carr`s Illustrated Biography , published in 1976/77 . One of the best Books about the Stones, for sure at the time of publishing. The average or very interested fan knew the personal of FF.
And yes, as a guitarplayer or player other instruments you can identify a musician , sometimes in opposite of what the Books are saying. Heaven is for sure played by Jagger.
Another example is Highwire. When it was released I was thinking great, but where is Ronnie Wood? Just playing the solo? You can hear that the rythm is not played by Ronnie but Mick/Keith. You don`t need any books to know that...

Tom

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Sad Sad Sad is another example, btw. Very easy to hear it's not Keith, even though it's a classic open G-riff.

Oeps: I'm referring to the Studio version. When I heard it at the time I just took it for granted that the intro was played by Keith. I think most people did at the time- I never looked on the record sleeve who played what.

At the time, I didn't have the knowledge I have now

But I did notice that the other guitar was played by Keith back then. In a way it was easy, because I heard the live version (LYL) first.

I remember being a bit annoyed, since Keith played so much slower on the studio recording. I thought the bass was a bit lamer, too. I always liked the live version best. Some years later I found out that the recording from Toronto was edited and shortened. So, today I enjoy the full-length bootleg-version most. Great tune, though

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There is no way that is Keith soloing the last 50 seconds.Show me one song where he plays those lead lines like that.I can point to many by Taylor that sound just like that.Keith never plays like that

No use in telling you "It's not Mick Taylor". Better explain why it's not Mick Taylor, so see my previous post.

Short and Curries is another example. To me Keith's best noodling ever, it sounds very Taylor-esque, but don't let it fool you, there's no vibrato. Thus not Taylor.

Really? where is the vibrato on Taylor’s soloson All Down the Line or Dance Little Sister?To a novice like me, it sounds like the guitar playing on All Down the Line sounds like that on Luxury.And there is no example of Keith ever playing like the outro on Luxury. if you are right, perhaps Taylor is playing one of the other 2or 3 guitars on Luxury.And the one question you can’t answer is why Keith never played the lead guitar part of Luxury live in 1975 or at the El Mocambo like he did Bitch live on many tours

Let me put it this way: Taylor has a different bit more fluid style than Richards, Keith is a bit more "stiff" in his noodling than Taylor. You can recognise the difference immediately.

One more thing: For years I thought it was Keith playing the open G on "Fingerprint File", "Sway" and "Stop Breaking Down". It turned out be Mick Jagger.Those guys have been hanging around for years, and influenced each other quite a lot.

FF is standard tuning, though.

Thanks.It still sounds very much like Keith

It actually sounds very much like Jagger...it's the same choppy, sometimes awkward but great sounding rhythm approach Jagger also has on Stop Breaking Down. It's very much a non-guitar player approach to guitar playing.

Mathijs

That's a very subjective approach. I only noticed it after I found out it was Jagger.

With that kind of reasoning recognizing somebody's playing style is always subjective.

Mathijs

Give the average Stones fan a guess who plays the intro on fingerprint file and 99%
-me and you included- would have said "Keith", at least 25 years ago. In hindsight we know it's Jagger and then we all say "oh that's clearly Jagger".WtF, in my opinion the difference in feeling between Keith and Jagger in this case is almost insignificant. Jagger had a good teacher.

Well no, the difference to me is not insignificant. Both FF and SBD have the emphasis of the timing on the offbeat, which is so completely different than to how Richards would have played it. Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Average Stones Fan ? Well, Jagger playing guitar on FF is mentioned in Roy Carr`s Illustrated Biography , published in 1976/77 . One of the best Books about the Stones, for sure at the time of publishing. The average or very interested fan knew the personal of FF.
And yes, as a guitarplayer or player other instruments you can identify a musician , sometimes in opposite of what the Books are saying. Heaven is for sure played by Jagger.
Another example is Highwire. When it was released I was thinking great, but where is Ronnie Wood? Just playing the solo? You can hear that the rythm is not played by Ronnie but Mick/Keith. You don`t need any books to know that...

Tom

True. And the average fan would probably also have noticed Mick playing the riff in concert in 1975/76

Sad Sad Sad is another example, btw. Very easy to hear it's not Keith, even though it's a classic open G-riff.

Oeps: I'm referring to the Studio version. When I heard it at the time I just took it for granted that the intro was played by Keith. I think most people did at the time- I never looked on the record sleeve who played what.

At the time, I didn't have the knowledge I have now

But I did notice that the other guitar was played by Keith back then. In a way it was easy, because I heard the live version (LYL) first.

I remember being a bit annoyed, since Keith played so much slower on the studio recording. I thought the bass was a bit lamer, too. I always liked the live version best. Some years later I found out that the recording from Toronto was edited and shortened. So, today I enjoy the full-length bootleg-version most. Great tune, though

My statements are based on the initial released track back in the early 7-tees. Nobody at the time even questioned whether it was Keith or Jagger playing it.
It was Keith for us. Definitely a great tune.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-26 14:35 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Same with the main rhythm part of Crazy Mama -a real guitar player would have never played it like that. And yes I knew that 25 years ago. There's many things I didn't know 25 years ago though.

Mathijs

Thanks for the info, I never realised that Jagger played the guitar on Crazy Mamma. Until today I thought it was Keith, and it definitely sounds like a real good rhythm guitarist to me - unlike Keith if I remember it well. He didn't think much of Jagger as a rhythm player?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-26 16:07 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Thanks I never looked that close, just listened. And frankly, I just gave it another listen after 20 years and I don't hear Jagger, unless he's a very good Keith copy-cat. Can anyone point out what part Jagger is playing and what part Keith is playing. It all sounds like Keith to me ? Bård, Mathijs, Taylor1 ??



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-26 17:05 by TheflyingDutchman.

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So,....HMS was right after all. Tattoo You is a compilation of seventies leftovers...

Did people ever debate that?

All albums are compilations.

The idiocy of stating such a thing because one has such severe cognition issues as an argument as to what comprises a compilation when the very definition of 'album' is... is @#$%& ridiculous.

Right, but the leftovers part.

Leftovers... they've been using leftovers for years. Starts with LET IT BLEED - they first worked on Love In Vain and Sister Morhphine for BEGGARS... and SF and EXILE tracks were started for LIB... IORR tracks were started for the SOUP sessions... and on and on and on.

To what I've figured out, the last leftover was Too Tough, started for BLACK AND BLUE.

No doubt. But an entire album of leftovers is an accurate statement.

It is. The point someone made of 'it's nothing new therefor it doesn't count' is ignorant. If they had finished every track recorded for SOME GIRLS they wouldn't've been finished until 1983... Only a hack mentality would say something to that degree.

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Thanks Bård, I never looked that close, just listened. And frankly, I just gave it another listen after 20 years and I don't hear Jagger, unless he's a very good Keith copy-cat. Can you point out what part Jagger is playing and what part Keith is playing. It all sounds like Keith to me ?

The very first chugging guitar is Mick.

The bit about telling who is playing... there are moments when it's easy to tell that it's Mick - it's more on the beat and the attack is nowhere near as aggressive and precise as Keith: Mick tends to clang away while Keith slices.

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Thanks Bård, I never looked that close, just listened. And frankly, I just gave it another listen after 20 years and I don't hear Jagger, unless he's a very good Keith copy-cat. Can you point out what part Jagger is playing and what part Keith is playing. It all sounds like Keith to me ?

The very first chugging guitar is Mick.

The bit about telling who is playing... there are moments when it's easy to tell that it's Mick - it's more on the beat and the attack is nowhere near as aggressive and precise as Keith: Mick tends to clang away while Keith slices.

So it's the right hand approach basically. Thanks GSL

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So,....HMS was right after all. Tattoo You is a compilation of seventies leftovers...

Did people ever debate that?

All albums are compilations.

The idiocy of stating such a thing because one has such severe cognition issues as an argument as to what comprises a compilation when the very definition of 'album' is... is @#$%& ridiculous.

Right, but the leftovers part.

Leftovers... they've been using leftovers for years. Starts with LET IT BLEED - they first worked on Love In Vain and Sister Morhphine for BEGGARS... and SF and EXILE tracks were started for LIB... IORR tracks were started for the SOUP sessions... and on and on and on.

To what I've figured out, the last leftover was Too Tough, started for BLACK AND BLUE.

No doubt. But an entire album of leftovers is an accurate statement.

It is. The point someone made of 'it's nothing new therefor it doesn't count' is ignorant. If they had finished every track recorded for SOME GIRLS they wouldn't've been finished until 1983... Only a hack mentality would say something to that degree.

Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of the context within an argument.

Tattoo You is my favorite Stones record post-Taylor.

It’s also my favorite post Taylor. Side 2 still holds up as a masterpiece for me. I also view the first 4 tracks on side 1 as good as anything off SOME GIRLS.

I thought it was strange, considering what was left off SOME GIRLS, that Respectable and Imagination made the album.

The same could be said about EMOTIONAL RESCUE - instead of, say, Indian Girl, Where The Boys Go, Let Me Go and Send It To Me, that Hang Fire, Neighbours, No Use In Crying, Heaven or Little T&A had been finished.

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I thought it was strange, considering what was left off SOME GIRLS, that Respectable and Imagination made the album.

The same could be said about EMOTIONAL RESCUE - instead of, say, Indian Girl, Where The Boys Go, Let Me Go and Send It To Me, that Hang Fire, Neighbours, No Use In Crying, Heaven or Little T&A had been finished.

In retrospect, one might almost wonder if there wasn't some strategy involved before they released ER, already: not touring until fall 1981, when a new record would be needed, so maybe those TY songs were already in the picture? (In which case btw, the case for TY being a compilation album would be significantly weaker than it already is, too )

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I thought it was strange, considering what was left off SOME GIRLS, that Respectable and Imagination made the album.

The same could be said about EMOTIONAL RESCUE - instead of, say, Indian Girl, Where The Boys Go, Let Me Go and Send It To Me, that Hang Fire, Neighbours, No Use In Crying, Heaven or Little T&A had been finished.

In retrospect, one might almost wonder if there wasn't some strategy involved before they released ER, already: not touring until fall 1981, when a new record would be needed, so maybe those TY songs were already in the picture? (In which case btw, the case for TY being a compilation album would be significantly weaker than it already is, too )

That wouldn't be surprising at all, really, especially when you consider these:

We've already got a few things finished and mixed, because the ten tracks on Some Girls comprise the bare minimum. In actual fact we recorded something like 42 tracks in Paris, and although some of it isn't finished it all has the same basic feel... There's also a really good finished track called Everything's Turning to Gold and both Hang Fire and So Young are mixed and ready.

- Keith Richards, July 1978

That's a pretty straight forward statement about the plethora of material recorded just for SOME GIRLS.

Then Mick says this about EMOTIONAL RESCUE:

It took FOREVER. I started writing a ton of songs last summer, then Charlie and I did a few demos. Some of them came out of that. Some had been written before. Then we recorded a whole lot of newer things, which weren't really complete. THEN, we went back and more or less chose the ones we started with. I mean, it was just so haphazard and slapdash. Too much work was made out of it. I think Parkinson's disease or whatever sets in if you've got no real cutoff date, 'cause you just keep going until you've done EVERYTHING you can possibly think of. And then you say, well, great, but now we've got 40 songs, some of which are good and some of which COULD be good if only they were, you know, DIFFERENT. At the end, you think, Jesus, WHERE am I? It's STUPID. That's a DUMB way of doing it. We DO have a lot of material, admittedly, but that's NOT the point. The point is that it took 2 years to get it. You could've easily made it in nine months. Nobody had any proper vision of it. NOBODY @#$%& knew where they were going. That includes me. You get bored with things very quickly. My attention span is so limited. You know, I just love to make up songs and I don't even like to finish the words. I just like to sing ooooh all the way through. And then I'm happy after that. I don't want to do anymore. That's IT. I don't even want to hear it again.

- Mick Jagger, 1980

So Mick was a bit flip about what they had done between 1977 and 1980. Combine the sessions and supposedly they'd recorded 80 some songs. Add Keith a bit jacked up (pun intended) and you start to see something else happening:

We cut enough for two albums. That was almost as big a problem as not having enough - knowing what to leave out. It's not that we used the best of what we had; we just used what fitted together. My idea is to try to get out another album this year, and then we can get these @#$%& on the ROAD! Instead of the same old treadmill of road, studio, road, studio, road, studio, we can make extended road trips or do anything else we want to do: be moving stars or make solo albums.

- Keith Richards, 1980

Although I don't think anyone here would say 'They always cut a lot of tracks' meaning that they did 40 some tracks for every album, they did generally record a lot more than ever made an album. Which is no surprise, really, unless there's something strange going on - look at photographers - they take hundreds of pictures only to have to narrow it down to, I dunno, 10 to be used for this that and the other magazine etc.

Mick: During the whole thing, I mean I really wish there was someone that could do a lot of this. Cause there's a lot of donkey work making records, you know. You hear about bands making... spending 2 years making (records.) A lot of it is donkey work 'cause what you do is a really stupid way of making records. Instead of going in with 10 songs saying, These are the 10 songs we all know and like, you know - they're all rehearsed, great, fantastic, here they come... (Again we did) 30! - it's like making a movie. And so... and then you start, Oh, I wish we could use that one!, and Ronnie's going, What about that one? (laughs) ... And so you wither it down from 30 down to 10 and it's a very slow process...
Ron: (Jokes) And there's guitar lessons for Mick, you know. They take weeks and weeks....

- Mick Jagger & Ron Wood, 1980

Lateron Mick was dismissive of EMOTIONAL RESCUE, which is strange, really, considering how successful it was and how much work they put into it yet alone the leftover tracks Mick and Kimsey worked on for TATTOO YOU:

(I)t doesn't (have the resonance of Some Girls). You know, Emotional Rescue is a lot of leftovers from Some Girls. Really.

- Mick Jagger, 1995

[timeisonourside.com]

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I thought it was strange, considering what was left off SOME GIRLS, that Respectable and Imagination made the album.

The same could be said about EMOTIONAL RESCUE - instead of, say, Indian Girl, Where The Boys Go, Let Me Go and Send It To Me, that Hang Fire, Neighbours, No Use In Crying, Heaven or Little T&A had been finished.

In regard to SOME GIRLS, I don't find that strange at all. I think those two cuts are wonderful tracks on that album - self-ironic 'chuck-berry-lesson-for-punks' "Respectable" was even released as a single in UK and made the charts there. I think SOME GIRLS altogether is wonderfully constructed as far song selections go. A wide range of styles and mostly played with that new punk-inspired fresh attitude of the band. A coherent, nicely flowing album.

Anyway, like Keith mentioned in the quote in this or recent TATTOO YOU -thread, it is not the question of the songs being good enough if rejected, but not being suitable for the purpose. I think with SOME GIRLS they did an excellent choice, even by leaving such a gem like "Start Me Up" out. I don't think such a retro-sounding piece (if not done reggaeish) would have fitted there. The artistic statement of SOME GIRLS was basically to get rid of the typical Open G -styled Stones sound they had excelled to death by then. There is nothing 'Stones-by-numbers' in SOME GIRLS, but the band was updating their sound and looking forward (there is an early version of "Shattered" in which there are a bit too many typical familiar sounding elements - of which they got rid of in the released version, and ended up sounding totally novel). But by the time of TATTOO YOU releasing "Start Me Up" as a leading single was a wonderful artistic move... good old Stones is back and sounding like they used to.

Seemingly EMOTIONAL RESCUE was altogether a tough one to complete, including which cuts to choose, since Mick and Keith didn't share the same vision any longer, and seemed to fight over every little detail. Probably the whole album suffers from that.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-28 12:51 by Doxa.

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I thought it was strange, considering what was left off SOME GIRLS, that Respectable and Imagination made the album.

The same could be said about EMOTIONAL RESCUE - instead of, say, Indian Girl, Where The Boys Go, Let Me Go and Send It To Me, that Hang Fire, Neighbours, No Use In Crying, Heaven or Little T&A had been finished.

In regard to SOME GIRLS, I don't find that strange at all. I think those two cuts are wonderful tracks on that album - self-ironic 'chuck-berry-lesson-for-punks' "Respectable" was even released as a single in UK and made the charts there. I think SOME GIRLS altogether is wonderfully constructed as far song selections go. A wide range of styles and mostly played with that new punk-inspired fresh attitude of the band. A coherent, nicely flowing album.

Anyway, like Keith mentioned in the quote in this or recent TATTOO YOU -thread, it is not the question of the songs being good enough if rejected, but not being suitable for the purpose. I think with SOME GIRLS they did an excellent choice, even by leaving such a gem like "Start Me Up" out. I don't think such a retro-sounding piece (if not done reggaeish) would have fitted there. The artistic statement of SOME GIRLS was basically to get rid of the typical Open G -styled Stones sound they had excelled to death by then. There is nothing 'Stones-by-numbers' in SOME GIRLS, but the band was updating their sound and looking forward (there is an early version of "Shattered" in which there are a bit too many typical familiar sounding elements - of which they got rid of in the released version, and ended up sounding totally novel). But by the time of TATTOO YOU releasing "Start Me Up" as a leading single was a wonderful artistic move... good old Stones is back and sounding like they used to.

Seemingly EMOTIONAL RESCUE was altogether a tough one to complete, including which cuts to choose, since Mick and Keith didn't share the same vision any longer, and seemed to fight over every little detail. Probably the whole album suffers from that.

- Doxa

I understand Respectable's place on SOME GIRLS (and how Imagination flies in the face of the rest of the "disco and punk ethos" rest of the album sans Far Away Eyes, of course), how it's perhaps how Chuck Berry would've written a punk song, and the status of why they were doing what they were doing. It's just that very thing that you pointed out - the much better songs (musically) were not suitable because the better songs were musically not in line with the ethos they were stabbing at with.

There's one thing that is certainly not Stones-by-numbers and that is SOME GIRLS (you could say the same thing about EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER, probably, it's just that they aren't as jarringly different as SOME GIRLS was to everything else, so they probably don't carry as much weight in regard) and you mentioned Start Me Up not being finished...

I'm not sure how Start Me Up could be considered retro for even 1977 - it's really not very far from Crazy Mama - but there's something else there that references the Stones-by-numbers: they did how many takes of the reggae version? If you go by what Keith says it's 40 something. Let's say that's true. So somewhere in there they do two or three straight forward rock versions, which, today, sounds like they could do in their sleep.

When listening to the reggae version, which is really quite bad especially compared to good reggae music, you can hear where Wyman just... did the same thing.

Aside from them rushing the riff and having a very jolting uptight reggae sounding song, Wyman's playing did not fit reggae - but it fits the rock version perfectly.

Of course there's also the reality that had they finished Start Me Up, the rock version, in 1978 for SOME GIRLS, it sure as hell wouldn't be the one we know.

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Of course there's also the reality that had they finished Start Me Up, the rock version, in 1978 for SOME GIRLS, it sure as hell wouldn't be the one we know.

I was just listening to "Girls, Pills and Powder" and there is a rock version of Start Me Up there that sounds almost the same as the released without the Tattoo You overdubbed vocals.

I was under the impression these were all Some Girls outtakes? Have no idea if this is correct or not, just always thought the basic tracks for the rock version was finished while recording Some Girls.