Very interesting points here re YA-YA'S and its relation to BEGGARS/BLEED material. It is also another feature that to see slight differences between the albums: how the songs are different from their original studio versions. This gives me an excuse to speculate a bit more...

Basically, during 67'-68' period the Stones, just like the Beatles turned out to be nothing but a studio band - an entity that had never existed before; one more brain child of of the innovative 60's... (of course, they had rehearsed with AFTERMATH sessions, but they were way too hurry touring band to really sit down and think the music more 'deeply'. They didn't had that luxury yet.). But from then on, the recording studio was the reign where the band's activities took place - the experimentalism together with the amount of time, plus the new, technological possibilities - the idea was just to make records by the sake and sound of their own, not how the songs are to be delivered on stage. Of course, BEGGARS material is more performance-friendly than MAJESTIES stuff but still I would claim the leading idea in creating the material was not "wow, this song will sound brilliant live! I am eager to hit the stage with it!". That would explain the acoustic nature of the album and especially Keith's experiments with different recording technics: all he was after was the finished sound as a value and aim of its own. This "live-free" mentality is perhaps the reason why BEGGARS is such a coherent masterpiece. (One more argument to shorter the supposed huge gap between BEGGARS and MAJESTIES).

Of course, LET IT BLEED also had the same "luxury" to be made for the sake of its own, and it had still essentially different identity than the live versions of its material but the latter wasn't so huge - at least in places - anymore; by STICKY FINGERS the gap was rather small: the live versions do not essentially differ from their original studio versions. Seemingly, the effect of going to tour again in 1969 had had a huge influence to their studio sound as well; from then on, one could say, the live sound would "live" with them in the studio as well. The following years the band essentially were both a studio and a live band (EXLE and the tour following it being the crown jewell) - both careers were treated as important values of their own.

But it would take until SOME GIRLS that I think that the band started to think the songs created in studio as - or even nothing but - sketches to play live. The recordings started to sound like trying to capturing the live essence of the band (that was basically the Pathe Marconi 'receipt'). As Edward Twining has once said, perhaps EMOTIONAL RESCUE is the first sign of the band having the attitude that "well, to be a living, breathing band we are supposed to make records, even though we particularly have not much desire or will". One could even continue the point by claiming that by the 90's the new studio records were nothing but excuses to hit the road again, 'topping' with a BIGGER BANG.

I think if the 'argument' I try to construct or sketch here might offer one way to explain why the 'golden period' turned to creatively their most distinguished body of work.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-24 09:56 by Doxa.

To add one point: I think it was one the most innovative moments - those VERY BIG moments - in the Stones history when the band re-thought and re-arranged the BEGGARS and BLEED material to live surroundings. That was a remarkable transformation. Of course, due to the nature of acustic-guitar based material that needed to be done, but the way they actually did (thinking of the resulst) it was an amazing achievement. Thereby, historically speaking, GET YER YA-YA'S OUT! is a necessary step of ladder when one tries to grasp the progression of the band from LET IT BLEED to STICKY FINGERS. It is an essential part of the Golden Era story.

I still remember when I was a young Stones fan, listening to YA-YA'S and comparing its material to the studio versions, and thinking: "wow, how they can think and play the same songs in two different ways and both being brilliant!"....

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-24 10:09 by Doxa.

Doxa:

I know I am playing the @#$%& role, but I don't see all this great work of rearrangement.

Jumpin' Jack Flash, Love in Vain, and Street Fighting Man are basically played the same way as in the studio, only with electric guitars instead of acoustic. OK, JJF is in open g instad of open E, but that is just details.

Carol, stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler, Live With Me, Little Queenie and Honky Tonk Women were all electric to start with. On Stray Cat Keith steps back to allow space to Tayor, and Rambler was extended. But basically the rearrangement was the obvious consequence of playing the songs live with two electric guitars.

Sympathy for the Devil is the only song that was heavily rearranged. I agree with HM that Taylor's strumming doesn't add much to the song (this is why I very much prefer the 75 version) but Keith's guitar is a KILLER. Then, of course, Taylor catches up with his super solo, but that is another story.

C

1. Exile on Main Street
2. Let it Bleed
3. Sticky Fingers
4. Beggars Banquet
5. The Rolling Stones No. 2
6. Some Girls
7. Goats Head Soup
8. Tattoo You
9. Aftermath
10. A Bigger Bang
11. The Rolling Stones
12. Steel Wheels
13. Voodoo Lounge
14. Out of our Heads
15. It's only Rock n Roll
16. Between the Buttons
17. Their Satanic Majesties Request
18. Emotional Rescue
19. Bridges to Babylon
20. Dirty Work
21. Undercover
22. Black and Blue

Quote
liddas
Doxa:

I know I am playing the @#$%& role, but I don't see all this great work of rearrangement.

Jumpin' Jack Flash, Love in Vain, and Street Fighting Man are basically played the same way as in the studio, only with electric guitars instead of acoustic. OK, JJF is in open g instad of open E, but that is just details.

Carol, stray Cat Blues, Midnight Rambler, Live With Me, Little Queenie and Honky Tonk Women were all electric to start with. On Stray Cat Keith steps back to allow space to Tayor, and Rambler was extended. But basically the rearrangement was the obvious consequence of playing the songs live with two electric guitars.

Sympathy for the Devil is the only song that was heavily rearranged. I agree with HM that Taylor's strumming doesn't add much to the song (this is why I very much prefer the 75 version) but Keith's guitar is a KILLER. Then, of course, Taylor catches up with his super solo, but that is another story.

C

Post Hyde Park 1969 - 1970 Stray Cat Blues are very different to the studio version. The Hyde Park version is closer to the studio cut, but using open G(doesn't sound as meaty) instead of open D, the 1969/70 tours have quite a different approach.

It's great and interesting that they did this stuff of course, but with regards to the Beggars era songs, for me the live tracks pale in comparison to the studio versions, also Gimme Shelter included...

Jaggers thoughts on studio vrs live can be viewed in the interview at his Cheyne Walk home in the Stones in the Park video

Keith also criticized The Band for sticking too close to the studio versions when they backed Dylan at 1969 Isle of Whight festival.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-24 14:09 by His Majesty.

Very interesting points, Doxa. I think once Mick Taylor was on board, the Stones were very much able to broaden themselves musically within the blues/rock framework, which is perhaps the reason that their arrangements to live performances could match more closely the sounds on more contemporary albums like 'Sticky Fingers' and 'Exile On Main Street'. I must admit though to missing a little of the naivety and relative simplicity found on an album like 'Beggars Banquet', once the Stones incorporated those harder 'rock' sounds. I love 'Exile On Main Street', of course, but there is a part of me that misses the charm of 'Beggars Banquet', when digesting those more forceful sounds on offer.

I think in a sense, Doxa, i may have been being rather kind when i remarked in another thread that 'Emotional Rescue' was possibly the first example of the Stones recording out of necessity, because it was the thing to do, rather than because they felt inspired. I almost believe in part that could have been said about the 'Goats Head Soup' album to a degree, despite the fact i have rather a soft spot for it. What i was really meaning to say was that 'Emotional Rescue' was pretty much the first of an unbroken run of Stones albums that were recorded out of necessity, rather than out of inspiration. 'Tattoo You' of course was rather more inspiring, yet it was also primarily made up from outtakes, stretching back as far as the early 70s in some cases. I think in the context of those albums recorded between 'Goats Head Soup' and the release of 'Tattoo You', 'Some Girls' reveals itself to be absolutely vital in terms of maintaining the Stones reputation as a credible and contemporary musical force, because it loosens off the shackles of aimlessness and indulgency, and perhaps a detached disposition within the way the Stones projected themselves which was gradually eroding their standing within popular music. Had it not been for 'Some Girls' (and 'Tattoo You'), there is a sense we may not have been talking of the post 'Tattoo You' era being the point at which the Stones lost their inspiration, we may just as easily have perceived it stretching back to the post 'Exile On Main Street', or at best the post 'Goats Head Soup' eras. However, that's certainly not to imply there was nothing on 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll', 'Black And Blue' and 'Emotional Rescue' worth listening to, quite the contrary in many instances, just that at those times the Stones were very much lacking a sense of purpose and inspiration. And this is coming from someone who has never been particuarly fond of 'Some Girls'!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-25 10:16 by Edward Twining.

hmm, I think that once they emerged as successful recording artists in 1964, they could always be said to have driven in large part by necessity, in order to maintain and capitalize on their status as a top group. They are so prolific from 1965-67 because that's how the industry worked at that time--and also because they were young and gelling as a band, but these factors worked together. Aren't Sticky Fingers and Exile both to some extent compilation albums, gathering songs written and in some cases recorded since 1969? Hard to say where the inspiration ends and the necessity begins in such cases. According to these terms, I find Aftermath and Beggars to be their most inspired albums.

You make a good point,cc.

The Stones in their youth were naturally more motivated and inspired because they were new to the business and had a sense of purpose in the need to prove themselves. I think although the Stones were more into blues influences than some of their british contempories, like the Beatles for example, it is impossible to detach them from the timeframe from which they first became famous. The Beatles were an important and vital influence for the Stones back in those early days, because they very much paved the way for many of the british artists, in conquering america, writing their own songs, influencing to a degree their sense of musical direction etc. Had the Beatles not existed, much of the Stones 60s musical output would have been very different, and also, perhaps, Andrew Oldham or whoever was managing them, would have found it harder to pitch them as the bad guys, in a sense of cultivating an image. While the Beatles were still around, certainly, the Stones in a sense found a context to exist in, and a formidable group who could act as rivals. I believe the Stones sense of ambition was huge back in those days, and not just because the Beatles were their main rivals. There were many very creative groups/artists around as the sixties progressed with whom the Stones could feel in competition.

When the Stones released their debut album, 'The Rolling Stones' they were incredibly successful in being able to capture the magic of their live sound, in being able to successfully incorporate much of the vibrancy and energy of recording the cover songs that had appeared in their live sets over a long period. However, with 'The Rolling Stones No2' and 'Out Of Our Heads' they are maybe recording out of necessity (possibly when they could fit in recording sessions around their touring schedule), rather than feeling inspired (in feeling genuinely creative), although the very fact they were brimming with ambition still very much comes through in terms of energy. In a sense from 'Aftermath' on, the Stones were more inspired creatively, whether their primary influences may have been misquided at the time with 'Between The Buttons' and 'Their Satanic Majesties Request' is another matter, but they were certainly feeling hungry. I think moving forward to the early 70s, the Stones had pretty much reached their zenith with 'Exile On Main Street', in terms of finding the sound that was truly their forte, that was their true identity, and then it was pretty much a case of where do they go from here. The Beatles were no more, in addition to many of the other groups and artists from whom acted as rivals, and even Bob Dylan appeared semi retired at this moment in time, and of course a younger generation was growing up around them with their own musical heroes. The Stones themselves were perhaps no longer as close , as they were getting older, having wives and children, and priorities change, and especially relating to Keith, drugs begin to play an ever increasing part.

I actually think 'Goats Head Soup' is vastly underrated, especially with those reviewers who like to lump it with the likes of 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll', and 'Black And Blue'. I think it still manages to retain that certain magic from 'Exile On Main Street' to a degree. However, there is a sense that with 'Goats Head Soup' the Stones were no longer working as a cohesive unit, and on a number of tracks, the sounds begin to feel arrived at via mixing desk, than having perhaps a more clear vision at the outset of where to take the songs. Songs like 'Dancing With Mr D' and 'Can You Hear The Music?' firstly sound somehow strangely indulgent and lacking, yet they do have the power to grow on the listener over time. However, the seeds of doubt are very much planted around this time, and by 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll' and 'Black And Blue', they seem strangely coming to fruition, where the Stones sound becomes ever more hollow. However, having said that 'Black And Blue' is definitely a step up from 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll' in my opinion.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-25 10:06 by Edward Twining.

1. EXILE ON MAIN STREET-72
2. BEGGARS BANQUET-68
3. SOME GIRLS-78
4. EMOTIONAL RESCUE-80
5. GOAT'S HEAD SOUP-73
6. UNDERCOVER-83
7. BLACK & BLUE-76
8. VOODOO LOUNGE-94
9. STICKY FINGERS-71
10. DIRTY WORK-86
11. TATOO YOU-81
12. IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL-74
13. LET IT BLEED-69
14. BRIDGES TO BABYLON-97
15. STEEL WHEELS-89
16. A BIGGER BANG-05
17. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS-67
18. AFTERMATH-66
19. THE ROLLING STONES-64
20. OUT OF OUR HEADS-65
21. THE ROLLING STONES#2-65
22. THEIR SATANIES MAJESTIES REQUEST

Quote
MadMax
1. EXILE ON MAIN STREET-72
2. BEGGARS BANQUET-68
3. SOME GIRLS-78
4. EMOTIONAL RESCUE-80
5. GOAT'S HEAD SOUP-73
6. UNDERCOVER-83
7. BLACK & BLUE-76
8. VOODOO LOUNGE-94
9. STICKY FINGERS-71
10. DIRTY WORK-86
11. TATOO YOU-81
12. IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL-74
13. LET IT BLEED-69
14. BRIDGES TO BABYLON-97
15. STEEL WHEELS-89
16. A BIGGER BANG-05
17. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS-67
18. AFTERMATH-66
19. THE ROLLING STONES-64
20. OUT OF OUR HEADS-65
21. THE ROLLING STONES#2-65
22. THEIR SATANIES MAJESTIES REQUEST

Not fair to Satanic Majesties. As weak as that album was, it had bona fide Stones classics on it like "She's A Rainbow" and "2000 Light Years From Home". Can't say that about DW, ABB, B2B, Voodoo.

The definitive album will be the first album, along with Bright Lights Big City, which may be, arguably, the actual first album. Perhaps England's Newest is not viewed as the definitive album now, but it will be historically.

Today...

1.BEGGARS BANQUET -68
2.AFTERMATH -66
3.THE ROLLING STONES -64
4.OUT OF OUR HEADS -65
5.LET IT BLEED -69
6.BETWEEN THE BUTTONS -67
7.THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES -67
8.STICKY FINGERS -71
9.EXILE ON MAIN STREET -72
10.BLACK AND BLUE -76
11.THE ROLLING STONES NO 2 -65
12.SOME GIRLS -78
13.GOATS HEAD SOAP -63
14.IT’S ONLY ROCK’N’ROLL -74
15.TATTOO YOU -81
16.BRIDGES TO BABYLON -97
17.A BIGGER BANG -05
18.VOODOO LOUNGE -94
19.EMOTIONAL RESCUE -80
20.UNDERCOVER -83
21.STEEL WHEELS -89
22.DIRTY WORK -86

1. LET IT BLEED
2. BEGGARS BANQUET
3. EXILE ON MAIN STREET
4. STICKY FINGERS
5. AFTERMATH
6. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS
7. SOME GIRLS
8. TATTOO YOU
9. EMOTIONAL RESCUE
10.VOODOO LOUNGE
11.BRIDGES TO BABYLON
12.OUT OF OUR HEADS
13.DECEMBER'S CHILDREN
14.NOW
15.12 x 5
16.THE ROLLING STONES
17.IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL
18.GOATS HEAD SOUP
19.UNDERCOVER
20.BLACK AND BLUE
21.STEEL WHEELS
22.A BIGGER BANG
23.DIRTY WORK
24.THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST

[1. LET IT BLEED
2. BEGGARS BANQUET
3. EXILE ON MAIN STREET
4. STICKY FINGERS
5. AFTERMATH
6. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS
7. SOME GIRLS
8. TATTOO YOU
9. EMOTIONAL RESCUE
<WANDERING SPIRIT>
<MAIN OFFENDER>
10.VOODOO LOUNGE
<TALK IS CHEAP>
11.BRIDGES TO BABYLON
12.OUT OF OUR HEADS
13.DECEMBER'S CHILDREN
14.NOW
15.12 x 5
16.THE ROLLING STONES
17.IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL
18.GOATS HEAD SOUP
19.UNDERCOVER
<PRIMITIVE COOL>
20.BLACK AND BLUE
21.STEEL WHEELS
22.A BIGGER BANG
23.DIRTY WORK
24.THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST[/quote]
<GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY>
<SHE'S THE BOSS>

Quote
MadMax
1. EXILE ON MAIN STREET-72
2. BEGGARS BANQUET-68
3. SOME GIRLS-78
4. EMOTIONAL RESCUE-80
5. GOAT'S HEAD SOUP-73
6. UNDERCOVER-83
7. BLACK & BLUE-76
8. VOODOO LOUNGE-94
9. STICKY FINGERS-71
10. DIRTY WORK-86
11. TATOO YOU-81
12. IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL-74
13. LET IT BLEED-69
14. BRIDGES TO BABYLON-97
15. STEEL WHEELS-89
16. A BIGGER BANG-05
17. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS-67
18. AFTERMATH-66
19. THE ROLLING STONES-64
20. OUT OF OUR HEADS-65
21. THE ROLLING STONES#2-65
22. THEIR SATANIES MAJESTIES REQUEST

voodoo higher rank than sticky??? come on...

There are more people here, regarding VL as the #1 album, so be careful

BTW, I'm not one of them, although VL doesn't deserve its bad reputation, imo.

I got as far as this:

1. Goats Head Soup (I think... on a good day, anyway)
2. Sticky Fingers (if it isn't Goats Head Soup)
3. Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out (if live albums are allowed)
4= Beggars Banquet
4= Exile On Main St. (or possibly the other way round)
5. ????

I'm not very good at lists.

When the money starts rolling in, its easy to lose focus, money, drugs and a little bit of boredom, probably. Remember Its Only Rock and Roll was only supposed to be half covers and half live, it was lucky to end up as it did. Dont quote me on that covers live bit but I have read that a few times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-04 13:17 by lapaz62.