ok guys , there's been some thoughts a while back about an overdub left in a turnaround.

recently i took the audio of the gimme shelter outtakes and placed them among GYYO
and found that both little queenies are the same track.

evidence:

keith's berry bits all match as do the solos
also stu's playing (after the first line in the first verse is a good example)
bill's upward progression at the beginning of the last solo
and charlie's playing , all the same
to make sure , i imported the audiostreams in Sonar and played them simultaniously.
the outtake is in mono , keith is more prominent.

the outtake contains the same double stop bends in the turnaround (at 2:16 before the solo) and a lick is played at the end , both are played
by mick taylor (you can hear him turn up the volume)
both are audible on the album , probably "leaking" through charlie's microphones
his intro playing is not on the outtake , neither is the little flourish at the very end.


the only conclusion is that mick taylor's track is completely overdubbed.

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DandelionPowderman
<Quote
straycatblues73
the only conclusion is that mick taylor's track is completely overdubbed.>

The guitar sounds like Keith, especially in the intro.

DandelionPowderman you are correct!
now i think it is actually keith who dubbed in a new taylor track , at some point the guitars synchronise that much (from the first " meanwhile i was thinking" )on, it gotta be the same player
also the flourish of notes at the very end sounds very much like keith
and there are no typical taylor counter melodies in the turnarounds


YA YA'S




GIMME SHELTER






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-05-30 20:29 by straycatblues73.

Quote
straycatblues73
ok guys , there's been some thoughts a while back about an overdub left in a turnaround.

recently i took the audio of the gimme shelter outtakes and placed them among GYYO
and found that both little queenies are the same track.

evidence:

keith's berry bits all match as do the solos
also stu's playing (after the first line in the first verse is a good example)
bill's upward progression at the beginning of the last solo
and charlie's playing , all the same
to make sure , i imported the audiostreams in Sonar and played them simultaniously.
the outtake is in mono , keith is more prominent.

the outtake contains the same double stop bends in the turnaround (at 2:16 before the solo) and a lick is played at the end , both are played
by mick taylor (you can hear him turn up the volume)
both are (barely )audible on the album , probably "leaking" through charlie's microphones
his intro playing is not on the outtake , neither is the little flourish at the very end.


the only conclusion is that mick taylor's track is completely overdubbed.

Thanks for discovering this, straycatblues73. I find it interesting. What can we conclude from this conclusion?

Btw: Which version do you prefer?

I think both KR and MT are played live (panned left and right), but there is a third guitar that was overdubbed (panned exact centre). This is hard to hear but you can just about hear it during the ending of the song, as well as during the 'Carol' style guitar breakdown bit.

Nobody could ruin a perfectly good Chuck Berry song more than Mick Taylor. On the 72 tour, listen to the way he stepped all over the wonderful-otherwise Bye Bye Johnnie. MT, good riddance.

Some interesting reading on the sources of Ya Ya's: rollingstonesnet

Micks playing on the un-doctored version sounds fine, why bother replacing it!?

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Carnaby
Nobody could ruin a perfectly good Chuck Berry song more than Mick Taylor. On the 72 tour, listen to the way he stepped all over the wonderful-otherwise Bye Bye Johnnie. MT, good riddance.

This'll make yah happy, you can hear his part really clear on this one...

Taylor's guitar is wonderful on this track. "Good riddance?" Wow! To my ears, Taylor is pushing Richards on this track - something Woody never did or was allowed to do.

Hey man , i'm sure you prefer Ron Wood
Nobody is perfect...

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Shawn20
Taylor's guitar is wonderful on this track. "Good riddance?" Wow! To my ears, Taylor is pushing Richards on this track - something Woody never did or was allowed to do.

Though the MT people are vocal in this Forum, most hardcore Stones fans believe in double rhythm ala Richard/Jones, Richards/Wood. This isn't REO Speedwagon, you know.

Anyway, back to 1969 Little Queenie!!!

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Carnaby

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Shawn20
Taylor's guitar is wonderful on this track. "Good riddance?" Wow! To my ears, Taylor is pushing Richards on this track - something Woody never did or was allowed to do.

Though the MT people are vocal in this Forum, most hardcore Stones fans believe in double rhythm ala Richard/Jones, Richards/Wood. This isn't REO Speedwagon, you know.

Hardcore fan is subjective at best, but my guess is most fans prefer the Taylor era. "Double rythm" - it's been a while since the guitar section provided any rythm.

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Carnaby
Nobody could ruin a perfectly good Chuck Berry song more than Mick Taylor. On the 72 tour, listen to the way he stepped all over the wonderful-otherwise Bye Bye Johnnie. MT, good riddance.

Oh, please...The Stones' two guitars NEVER sounded better on Berry songs than on the two on Ya-Ya's - before or since. OK, maybe "Around & Around" from El Mocambo, but that was heavily overdubbed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-20 18:15 by 71Tele.

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Carnaby
Nobody could ruin a perfectly good Chuck Berry song more than Mick Taylor. On the 72 tour, listen to the way he stepped all over the wonderful-otherwise Bye Bye Johnnie. MT, good riddance.

Interesting how two people can hear the same thing and have very different opinions about it. I love the double stop riffing that Mick does behind Keith and the single note runs he does before the chorus are great! Years ago I spent hours picking out the riffs by slowing my turntable down to 16 (anyone remember that speed?) so I could more easily pick out the notes. Ah, nostalgia! Sorry you don't like Carnaby to me to RAWKS!

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Carnaby

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Shawn20
Taylor's guitar is wonderful on this track. "Good riddance?" Wow! To my ears, Taylor is pushing Richards on this track - something Woody never did or was allowed to do.

Though the MT people are vocal in this Forum, most hardcore Stones fans believe in double rhythm ala Richard/Jones, Richards/Wood. This isn't REO Speedwagon, you know.

But in fact, the "double rhythm" you describe was most perfectly executed in 1969 with Richards and Taylor. All you have to do is listen to "Satisfaction" or almost anything else on Ya-Yas to hear it. I really don't know how you arrived at your "most hardcore Stones fans believe" conclusion. Did you take a poll?

There's great versions by all 3 main line ups of the band.

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71Tele


But in fact, the "double rhythm" you describe was most perfectly executed in 1969 with Richards and Taylor.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

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His Majesty

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71Tele


But in fact, the "double rhythm" you describe was most perfectly executed in 1969 with Richards and Taylor.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

Obviously...but it's as much a fact as "most hardcore Stones fans prefer Richards/Wood or Richards/Jones".

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71Tele

Obviously...but it's as much a fact as "most hardcore Stones fans prefer Richards/Wood or Richards/Jones".

With that I agree completely.

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His Majesty
There's great versions by all 3 main line ups of the band.

True: Richards/Jones: TAMI show "Around & Around"
Richards/Taylor: Ya-Yas "Queenie" and "Carol"
Richards/Wood: Love You Live "Around & Around"

These are my personal favorites for each lineup.

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71Tele

Quote
His Majesty
There's great versions by all 3 main line ups of the band.

True: Richards/Jones: TAMI show "Around & Around"
Richards/Taylor: Ya-Yas "Queenie" and "Carol"
Richards/Wood: Love You Live "Around & Around"

These are my personal favorites for each lineup.

lq on the b2b tour was every bit as impressive as the 69 version, imo.

for me, the 72 bbj is about as good as rock'n'roll ever got....or ever will.

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His Majesty
Micks playing on the un-doctored version sounds fine, why bother replacing it!?

Where can I find the un-doctored version? I did not know it existed.

That's funny saying that hardcore fans prefer Richards/Woods and Richards/Jones...

That means that hardcore fans DON'T prefer Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers, Exile and Goats Head Soup.

Interesting.

It's no coincidence that Taylor coincides with the best Stones albums...

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StonesTod

Quote
71Tele

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His Majesty
There's great versions by all 3 main line ups of the band.

True: Richards/Jones: TAMI show "Around & Around"
Richards/Taylor: Ya-Yas "Queenie" and "Carol"
Richards/Wood: Love You Live "Around & Around"

These are my personal favorites for each lineup.

lq on the b2b tour was every bit as impressive as the 69 version, imo.

for me, the 72 bbj is about as good as rock'n'roll ever got....or ever will.

Tod, I will check out Queenie from B2B, but I am skeptical to say the least (plus, no Bill Wyman on that one!). Cheers.

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russr
It's no coincidence that Taylor coincides with the best Stones albums...

The Rolling Stones, Aftermath, Beggars Banquet and majority of Let It Bleed kick that claim to the ground. ><

The band were already in their golden period(began in 1963 for me) as so many folks like to call it before he joined, Mick added to something that was already great, he didn't come onboard and make something sh*it great.

Also Mick was still part of the band when it started to decline(imo) see parts of GHS and most of IORR for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-20 20:19 by His Majesty.

i'm curious now ,does every stones live album released officially contain overdubs?

Quote
WeLoveYou
I think both KR and MT are played live (panned left and right), but there is a third guitar that was overdubbed (panned exact centre). This is hard to hear but you can just about hear it during the ending of the song, as well as during the 'Carol' style guitar breakdown bit.

read the first post, it is a remnant of MT's original playing leaking through drum microphones and therefor dead centre , listen to the gimme shelter little queenie

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His Majesty
Micks playing on the un-doctored version sounds fine, why bother replacing it!?

i can see no reason

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Happy Jack

Quote
His Majesty
Micks playing on the un-doctored version sounds fine, why bother replacing it!?

Where can I find the un-doctored version? I did not know it existed.

gimme shelter dvd outtakes

Quote
straycatblues73
ok guys , there's been some thoughts a while back about an overdub left in a turnaround.

recently i took the audio of the gimme shelter outtakes and placed them among GYYO
and found that both little queenies are the same track.

evidence:

keith's berry bits all match as do the solos
also stu's playing (after the first line in the first verse is a good example)
bill's upward progression at the beginning of the last solo
and charlie's playing , all the same
to make sure , i imported the audiostreams in Sonar and played them simultaniously.
the outtake is in mono , keith is more prominent.

the outtake contains the same double stop bends in the turnaround (at 2:16 before the solo) and a lick is played at the end , both are played
by mick taylor (you can hear him turn up the volume)
both are (barely )audible on the album , probably "leaking" through charlie's microphones
his intro playing is not on the outtake , neither is the little flourish at the very end.


the only conclusion is that mick taylor's track is completely overdubbed.

this should anwer most questions ha ha



btw i have listened to and played along with YAYAS SINCE '74 and played it most of all the albums i got. it is a superb guitar tutor of all styles and i consider myself to be taught by the two most amazing guitarists in the world. in the interrest of political correctness i know there are other guitarists available.
for me : joe walsh, mike campbell , john fogarty, yeah i'm showing my age



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-20 20:41 by straycatblues73.