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Talk
Image: Martijn Sandberg
I think Muddy was dead by the time Keith came out with that story (wasnt it in 25 x 5? If so, it was six years after Muddy had died)
Wyman doesnt mention it happening in his account of the band arriving at Chess Studios (I think he does mention about him helping them in with their gear though) and Marshall Chess is on record as saying the tale is utter fiction. Basically, the notion of Muddy doing this and even being asked to do it is laughable.
Is that like painting houses?
Does it matter whether something is fabricated vs. true...? sure it matters. Will we ever "get to
the bottom of it"? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth knowing whether Chess
had their blues artists doing other jobs around the studio when they weren't recording.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 21:12 by swiss.
Chapter 13 - Back In The Alley pages 228-229
Blues With A Feeling - The Little Walter Story
Tony Glover..Scott Dirks & Ward Gaines
Routledge 2002
ROCKMAN
I agree. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Gotta say, I couldn't disagree more. Knowing what actually happened is incredibly valuable. Good stories are a dime a dozen; there's only one truth.
About the knives bit, I can see Keith making notes there...
In the eyes of my imagination I can see there a good movie... Call it ONCE UPON TIME IN CHICAGO and let Tarantino, with a total artistic license, to write and direct it. Let Samuel L. Jackson do the part of either of Litte Walter or Sonny Boy, and let the dialogue fly... and five/six scary white kids up against the wall.. "what the @#$%& are you staring at us, you @#$%&?", says the Jackson dude with a knife. "we.. we just came to record and.. and... you know.. no problem, mr. Walter/Williamson, don't let us disturb..." In one scene there is that skinny big-eared shy white boy looking at a proud black man in a fine suit painting a ceiling. "Is he?... Why is he..?" "You've ever seen a man painting a goddamn ceiling? I bet you don't, white boy. Yeah, it's Muddy. Ask that one @#$%& there at the office why. Because his @#$%& records are not selling, man.." And so on...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 22:14 by Doxa.
Who needs Tarantino when we've got Doxa? Not sure how he does with essays or how'd you do with a screenplay but I know I enjoy your writing more often than I enjoy his! I may not always agree with your point but I don't know that I've ever seen you post something that's either poorly written or poorly thought out.
Maybe instead of a movie there could be a web site with stories based on the biggest myths of rock & roll. Written like they were real, of course.
Keep up the good work!
Peace,
Mr DJA
Which doesn't mean Bill is in possession of it.
Why should I believe Bill over Buddy Guy and Junior Wells?
just because he doesn't recall it? Hmp.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
nonfilter
()
Date: August 30, 2010 07:31
I am relatively new to this place, but I at least read through several topics every day even when I don't post anything. A common factor in most Keith related threads seems to be that the Muddy Waters painting the ceiling story is not true. How do you know it's not true? Did I miss an official statement from Chess? Just curious. I'm not saying it is true. Just want to know what I missed.
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Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: August 30, 2010 08:21
The other stones have refuted that story...and Muddy, and other Chess artists have refuted it as well.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: August 30, 2010 08:40
And by the way, Muddy Waters wasn't painting the ceiling when the Stones first arrived at 2120 S. Michigan Avenue, he was painting the goddamn ceiling. There is a difference.
Re: Muddy Waters, Chess Studios & the Rolling Stones
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: August 30, 2010 10:54
... i've never read anything where Muddy Waters disavowed it, but Marshall Chess and Bill Wyman both have.
it is true that Muddy Waters was at Chess studios one of the days the Stones recorded there, and helped them with their gear.
i believe Keith that someone was painting the ceiling - er i mean the goddamn ceiling. :E
maybe Keith was just looking the wrong direction when someone whispered "cor blimey, look - it's Muddy Waters!"
and the wrong image got tattooed on his psyche
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-30 10:59 by with sssoul.
it is true that Muddy Waters was at Chess studios one of the days the Stones recorded there, and helped them with their gear.
i believe Keith that someone was painting the ceiling - er i mean the goddamn ceiling. :E
maybe Keith was just looking the wrong direction when someone whispered "cor blimey, look - it's Muddy Waters!"
and the wrong image got tattooed on his psyche
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-30 10:59 by with sssoul.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: August 30, 2010 11:07
Robert Gordon who wrote the definitive MW bio states in his book that this anecdote is BS, simply cos Muddy had far too much class to do such a mundane job.
[www.amazon.com]
[www.amazon.com]
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
djgab
()
Date: August 30, 2010 11:18
Almost ten years ago, "la cité de la musique" in Paris organised a Stones week.
Lot of films were shown at that occasion.
I had the chance to watch "Ladies and Gentlemen".
And there were also a meeting, or conference, with Bill Wyman. And the audience could ask questions.
Lot of people ask about Brian's swimming pool.
I had the chance to ask what was it state of mind when he had the chance to meet their Blues idols when they first came to the US.
He said how proud and happy he was.
He told us the "goddamn ceiling" was pure Keith's point of view.
And he said that Muddy was very kind to them and help them to take out the guitars, amps ans stuff from the truck.
Somebody else was there that day ?
I think it was in 2000 or 2001 ...
Lot of films were shown at that occasion.
I had the chance to watch "Ladies and Gentlemen".
And there were also a meeting, or conference, with Bill Wyman. And the audience could ask questions.
Lot of people ask about Brian's swimming pool.
I had the chance to ask what was it state of mind when he had the chance to meet their Blues idols when they first came to the US.
He said how proud and happy he was.
He told us the "goddamn ceiling" was pure Keith's point of view.
And he said that Muddy was very kind to them and help them to take out the guitars, amps ans stuff from the truck.
Somebody else was there that day ?
I think it was in 2000 or 2001 ...
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
SomeTorontoGirl
()
Date: August 30, 2010 11:38
Image: Martijn Sandberg
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: August 31, 2010 01:05
What Keith meant to say was that Michaelangelo was painting then for the Chess Family.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: August 31, 2010 01:17
From Keith's forthcoming autobiography:
"It must have been about '64 or '65. First time we ever visited Italy. Andrew unlocks the kitchen and says to me and Mick, 'Right. You're off to Italy.' We're in Rome. I think we played a gig at the Colosseum. Class, right? We're styling. Bigger than The Beatles. We walk into the Sistine Chapel and there's Michelangelo painting the goddamn ceiling. His sales had really fallen. He was at a low ebb. I said to myself, 'There's a lesson for you about this business. It's cutthroat, man.' We would sit around at his feet listening to his stories about the Medicis. He was like a big dago Buddha to us, but the cats weren't into Michelangelo any more. They were buying f*ckin' Salvador Dali. We knew. We were selling Michelangelo's shit back to them putting his stuff on our sleeves. Bloody wops didn't know what they had in their own backyard."
"It must have been about '64 or '65. First time we ever visited Italy. Andrew unlocks the kitchen and says to me and Mick, 'Right. You're off to Italy.' We're in Rome. I think we played a gig at the Colosseum. Class, right? We're styling. Bigger than The Beatles. We walk into the Sistine Chapel and there's Michelangelo painting the goddamn ceiling. His sales had really fallen. He was at a low ebb. I said to myself, 'There's a lesson for you about this business. It's cutthroat, man.' We would sit around at his feet listening to his stories about the Medicis. He was like a big dago Buddha to us, but the cats weren't into Michelangelo any more. They were buying f*ckin' Salvador Dali. We knew. We were selling Michelangelo's shit back to them putting his stuff on our sleeves. Bloody wops didn't know what they had in their own backyard."
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: August 31, 2010 01:22
Quote
whitem8
The other stones have refuted that story...and Muddy, and other Chess artists have refuted it as well.
I think Muddy was dead by the time Keith came out with that story (wasnt it in 25 x 5? If so, it was six years after Muddy had died)
Wyman doesnt mention it happening in his account of the band arriving at Chess Studios (I think he does mention about him helping them in with their gear though) and Marshall Chess is on record as saying the tale is utter fiction. Basically, the notion of Muddy doing this and even being asked to do it is laughable.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: August 31, 2010 01:42
Keith was a guest on Steve Jordan's radio show about 12-18 months ago...
Jordan asked Keith about Muddy painting the ceiling and how Marshall Chess had claimed it wasn't true....
From memory Keith's comment was something like .... Well Marshall Chess wasn't there was he?
Slid it up there with the rmk mystery
ROCKMAN
Jordan asked Keith about Muddy painting the ceiling and how Marshall Chess had claimed it wasn't true....
From memory Keith's comment was something like .... Well Marshall Chess wasn't there was he?
Slid it up there with the rmk mystery
ROCKMAN
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
dancingmisterd
()
Date: August 31, 2010 05:04
Quote
nonfilter
I am relatively new to this place, but I at least read through several topics every day even when I don't post anything. A common factor in most Keith related threads seems to be that the Muddy Waters painting the ceiling story is not true. How do you know it's not true? Did I miss an official statement from Chess? Just curious. I'm not saying it is true. Just want to know what I missed.
Is that like painting houses?
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
TheBadRabbit
()
Date: October 21, 2014 20:13
I'm currently reading "Boogie Man" the John Lee Hooker bio by Charles Murray. In the section of the book where Murray talks about the business practices used by the record companies and producers, particularly when dealing with black artists, he repeats this story--sort of.
"In 1964, The Rolling Stones...made their pilgrimage to Chicago to record at Chess studios...They were horrified to discover that the burly decorator in overalls, painting the outside of the studio, was Muddy Waters..."
Murray attributes this anecdote to Willie Dixon's autobiography "I Am the Blues." So, Muddy has graduated from just painting the ceiling to touching up the outside of the building as well. I'm firmly with Marshall Chess on this one--I just cannot imagine any arrangement between Muddy Waters--the sharp-dressed ladies man--and Leonard Chess that would involve Muddy doing manual labor around the studio.
"In 1964, The Rolling Stones...made their pilgrimage to Chicago to record at Chess studios...They were horrified to discover that the burly decorator in overalls, painting the outside of the studio, was Muddy Waters..."
Murray attributes this anecdote to Willie Dixon's autobiography "I Am the Blues." So, Muddy has graduated from just painting the ceiling to touching up the outside of the building as well. I'm firmly with Marshall Chess on this one--I just cannot imagine any arrangement between Muddy Waters--the sharp-dressed ladies man--and Leonard Chess that would involve Muddy doing manual labor around the studio.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Cristiano Radtke
()
Date: October 21, 2014 20:25
Welcome to the blog for my book 50 Licks: Myths and Stories From Half A Century of The Rolling Stones. A couple of weeks ago on here, we talked about rock and roll urban legends. Last week we talked about Muddy Waters. Today we merge the two topics. Because, of course, there is a Rolling Stones rock and roll urban legend about none other than Muddy Waters.
On their first tour of America, the Stones got their chance to visit Chess Studios. They were in need of a boost. Their tour wasn’t going exceptionally well (the whole story is in the book on page 28). They recorded fourteen tracks in two days, including “It’s All Over Now.” Famously, Keith Richards insists he saw none other than Muddy Waters himself up on a ladder painting the ceiling! The implication being that the Chess brothers were such cheapskates that they put the talent to work in other ways as well.
Marshall Chess: I’ve laughed in his face many times as he’s insisted he saw Muddy up a ladder with a paint brush in hand. I guess people want to believe that it’s true.
Keith Richards: Marshall was a boy then; he was working in the basement. And also Bill Wyman told me he actually remembers Muddy Waters taking our amplifiers from the car into the studio. . .I know what the Chess brothers were bloody well like – if you want to stay on the payroll, get to work.
[Chess Producer] Norman Dayron: Marshall is right, Keith is wrong. And if Muddy Waters was helping carry anybody’s amplifiers – which isn’t likely – he was doing it out of courtesy.
Buddy Guy: I was the new guy. If anybody would have been painting the ceiling, it would have been me.
OK, so that’s Keith on one side, Marshall, Norman and Buddy on the other. Sorry, Keith, you lose. We’re going to put this one in the MYTH column. But there’s no doubt it’s a funny story/image and there’s a reason it’s persisted, even if mostly in Keith’s imagination
Marshall Chess: It says something about how unfashionable the blues had become at that time. By ’64 nobody really wanted to know. White people had never bought blues records. The audience had always been black. A new generation of black people looked down on the blues. They saw it as slavery music. Instead they were listening to Motown and Stax. It was bands like The Stones and The Yardbirds who introduced the blues to a white market.
Keith Richards: The most bizarre part of the whole story is we turned American people back on to their own music. And that’s probably our greatest contribution.
[50licks.wordpress.com]
On their first tour of America, the Stones got their chance to visit Chess Studios. They were in need of a boost. Their tour wasn’t going exceptionally well (the whole story is in the book on page 28). They recorded fourteen tracks in two days, including “It’s All Over Now.” Famously, Keith Richards insists he saw none other than Muddy Waters himself up on a ladder painting the ceiling! The implication being that the Chess brothers were such cheapskates that they put the talent to work in other ways as well.
Marshall Chess: I’ve laughed in his face many times as he’s insisted he saw Muddy up a ladder with a paint brush in hand. I guess people want to believe that it’s true.
Keith Richards: Marshall was a boy then; he was working in the basement. And also Bill Wyman told me he actually remembers Muddy Waters taking our amplifiers from the car into the studio. . .I know what the Chess brothers were bloody well like – if you want to stay on the payroll, get to work.
[Chess Producer] Norman Dayron: Marshall is right, Keith is wrong. And if Muddy Waters was helping carry anybody’s amplifiers – which isn’t likely – he was doing it out of courtesy.
Buddy Guy: I was the new guy. If anybody would have been painting the ceiling, it would have been me.
OK, so that’s Keith on one side, Marshall, Norman and Buddy on the other. Sorry, Keith, you lose. We’re going to put this one in the MYTH column. But there’s no doubt it’s a funny story/image and there’s a reason it’s persisted, even if mostly in Keith’s imagination
Marshall Chess: It says something about how unfashionable the blues had become at that time. By ’64 nobody really wanted to know. White people had never bought blues records. The audience had always been black. A new generation of black people looked down on the blues. They saw it as slavery music. Instead they were listening to Motown and Stax. It was bands like The Stones and The Yardbirds who introduced the blues to a white market.
Keith Richards: The most bizarre part of the whole story is we turned American people back on to their own music. And that’s probably our greatest contribution.
[50licks.wordpress.com]
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:02
For what matters, in James Phelge's book the quote is attributed to Brian Jones, not Keith.
In any case, true or not true, does it really matter?
With age we all inevitably have a tendency to unconsciously fill our memory lapses with some good old bullshit. This way facts become romanced anecdotes, which become myths.
CD players' Cross-interleaved Reed–Solomon coding is based on the same principle.
C
In any case, true or not true, does it really matter?
With age we all inevitably have a tendency to unconsciously fill our memory lapses with some good old bullshit. This way facts become romanced anecdotes, which become myths.
CD players' Cross-interleaved Reed–Solomon coding is based on the same principle.
C
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:11
Quote
liddas
For what matters, in James Phelge's book the quote is attributed to Brian Jones, not Keith.
In any case, true or not true, does it really matter?
With age we all inevitably have a tendency to unconsciously fill our memory lapses with some good old bullshit. This way facts become romanced anecdotes, which become myths. C
Does it matter whether something is fabricated vs. true...? sure it matters. Will we ever "get to
the bottom of it"? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth knowing whether Chess
had their blues artists doing other jobs around the studio when they weren't recording.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 21:12 by swiss.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:18
what colour was it painted?
Paint it, black.
Paint it, black.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:27
Chapter 13 - Back In The Alley pages 228-229
Blues With A Feeling - The Little Walter Story
Tony Glover..Scott Dirks & Ward Gaines
Routledge 2002
ROCKMAN
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:32
Thanks, Rockman! 
Nice to hear some fresh stories about those sessions! Cool cats, those two, Walter and Sonny boy...
Bill "honest, but boring" Wyman, by the way, seems to be a good story killer...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 21:35 by Doxa.
Nice to hear some fresh stories about those sessions! Cool cats, those two, Walter and Sonny boy...Bill "honest, but boring" Wyman, by the way, seems to be a good story killer...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 21:35 by Doxa.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:41
Quote
Doxa
Thanks, Rockman!
Bill "honest, but boring" Wyman, by the way, seems to be a good story killer...
- Doxa
I agree. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
blivet
()
Date: October 21, 2014 21:53
Quote
treaclefingers
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Gotta say, I couldn't disagree more. Knowing what actually happened is incredibly valuable. Good stories are a dime a dozen; there's only one truth.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: October 21, 2014 22:07
Couldn't resist...
Peace,
Mr DJA
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 21, 2014 22:09
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
Doxa
Thanks, Rockman!
Bill "honest, but boring" Wyman, by the way, seems to be a good story killer...
- Doxa
I agree. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
About the knives bit, I can see Keith making notes there...
In the eyes of my imagination I can see there a good movie... Call it ONCE UPON TIME IN CHICAGO and let Tarantino, with a total artistic license, to write and direct it. Let Samuel L. Jackson do the part of either of Litte Walter or Sonny Boy, and let the dialogue fly... and five/six scary white kids up against the wall.. "what the @#$%& are you staring at us, you @#$%&?", says the Jackson dude with a knife. "we.. we just came to record and.. and... you know.. no problem, mr. Walter/Williamson, don't let us disturb..." In one scene there is that skinny big-eared shy white boy looking at a proud black man in a fine suit painting a ceiling. "Is he?... Why is he..?" "You've ever seen a man painting a goddamn ceiling? I bet you don't, white boy. Yeah, it's Muddy. Ask that one @#$%& there at the office why. Because his @#$%& records are not selling, man.." And so on...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 22:14 by Doxa.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: October 21, 2014 22:16
Quote
DoxaQuote
treaclefingersQuote
Doxa
Thanks, Rockman!
Bill "honest, but boring" Wyman, by the way, seems to be a good story killer...
- Doxa
I agree. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
About the knives bit, I can see Keith making notes there...
In the eyes of my imagination I can see there a good movie... Call it ONCE UPON TIME IN CHICAGO and let Tarantino, with a total artistic license, to write and direct it. Let Samuel L. Jackson do the part of either of Litte Walter or Sonny Boy, and let the dialogue fly... and five/six scary white kids up against the wall.. "what the @#$%& are you staring at us, @#$%&?", says the Jackson dude with a knife. "we.. we just came to record and.. and... you know.. no problem, mr. Walter/Williamson, don't let us disturb..." In one scene there is that skinny big-eared shy white boy looking at a proud black man in a fine suit painting a ceiling. "Is he?... Why is he..?" "You've ever seen a man painting a ceiling? I bet you don't, white boy. Yeah, it's Muddy. Ask that one @#$%& there at the office why. Because his @#$%& records are not selling, man.." And so on...
- Doxa
Who needs Tarantino when we've got Doxa? Not sure how he does with essays or how'd you do with a screenplay but I know I enjoy your writing more often than I enjoy his! I may not always agree with your point but I don't know that I've ever seen you post something that's either poorly written or poorly thought out.
Maybe instead of a movie there could be a web site with stories based on the biggest myths of rock & roll. Written like they were real, of course.
Keep up the good work!
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 21, 2014 22:34
Cheers, Mr DJA! I write because I enjoy it, but it nice that some of you like to read my shit, or at least tolarate it... What I really appreciate in your post is the remark about differing opinions - we don't need to agree to enjoy the discussion.
Let us all keep up the good work!
- Doxa
Let us all keep up the good work!
- Doxa
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 21, 2014 22:39
Of course "painting the ceiling" has another meaning as well.
Who knows, maybe Keith took a break and wandered into the john, and there was Muddy, you know, "painting the ceiling".
Who knows, maybe Keith took a break and wandered into the john, and there was Muddy, you know, "painting the ceiling".
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
Wry Cooter
()
Date: October 21, 2014 23:47
Not that it would be source material, but I recall in the film "Cadillac Records" which is a movie version of Chess, there is a scene where the Stones come to the studio. Can't remember how it played out though.
Re: Muddy Waters painting the ceiling
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: October 22, 2014 00:07
Quote
blivetQuote
treaclefingers
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Gotta say, I couldn't disagree more. Knowing what actually happened is incredibly valuable. Good stories are a dime a dozen; there's only one truth.
Which doesn't mean Bill is in possession of it.
Why should I believe Bill over Buddy Guy and Junior Wells?
just because he doesn't recall it? Hmp.
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