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Re: Scarlet
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: September 2, 2020 14:58

I hope the Brazilian musicians got paid by Polygram for their work at the recording studio in 1976. I wonder who gets money from the Stones' reissues of their old records? Mick & Keith, UMG for sure but who else?
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: September 2, 2020 15:18

Also, see Jimmy Page's tweets from the time "Scarlet" was released:

[mobile.twitter.com]

"Keith kicked it off and I began to mould a riff around his guitar part to augment the arrangement. It began to lock-in pretty soon with the musicians and we all got a successful take that evening"

In the radio interview which I just listened, Page says he worked with Keith "right from the bare bones".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-02 15:36 by Topi.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: September 2, 2020 17:15

Has it been discussed that it might have been difficult at the time to get the record labels to sign off on Jimmy playing with the Stones?
Mick might have also been jealous, or at least maybe felt the session violated the songwriting arrangement he had with Keith.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: September 2, 2020 18:28

Quote
wonderboy
Has it been discussed that it might have been difficult at the time to get the record labels to sign off on Jimmy playing with the Stones?
Mick might have also been jealous, or at least maybe felt the session violated the songwriting arrangement he had with Keith.

Not a problem at all, because both - Rolling Stones Records and Led Zeppelin - were distributed by Atlantic at the time. Even if there were any problems, Page could have appeared under a pseudonym, what happened a lot back then.

Jealousy? A professional partnership is not a love affair!

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: September 2, 2020 18:30

Quote
rollmops
I hope the Brazilian musicians got paid by Polygram for their work at the recording studio in 1976. I wonder who gets money from the Stones' reissues of their old records? Mick & Keith, UMG for sure but who else?
Rockandroll,
Mops

Studio musicians usually get a flat fee and that's it. That was the task of Rolling Stones Records back then, Polygram has nothing to do with it.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: September 3, 2020 13:16

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
rollmops
I hope the Brazilian musicians got paid by Polygram for their work at the recording studio in 1976. I wonder who gets money from the Stones' reissues of their old records? Mick & Keith, UMG for sure but who else?
Rockandroll,
Mops

Studio musicians usually get a flat fee and that's it. That was the task of Rolling Stones Records back then, Polygram has nothing to do with it.

In that case, if we believe what the the Brazilian musicians said about the session, Polygram HAD a lot to do with. Polygram asked the musicians to play with Mick and Polygram represented the Rolling Stones in Brazil. Here is the parts of the interview that deals with the subject :

PAULO BRAGA: “In those days I used to do a lot of recording, day after day. When Polygram contacted me and said I had to do a session with Mick Jagger… See, at the time I liked Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull. I played with Wagner Tiso, Nivaldo Ornellas and Milton Nascimento. I also listened to Miles Davis and John Coltrane. We used to consider the Stones ‘old styled’. We used to say that ‘we were better than them’, meaning we played much better than the Stones. So, that Rolling Stones drummer, couldn’t play at all!”

"ANTONIO ADOLFO: “Mick Jagger was in Brazil and he contacted Polygram, which represented he Stones here (that was up to 1973, actually) And they scheduled a recording session and then they called people who they thought could do the job”

Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: September 3, 2020 13:32

Quote
rollmops
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
rollmops
I hope the Brazilian musicians got paid by Polygram for their work at the recording studio in 1976. I wonder who gets money from the Stones' reissues of their old records? Mick & Keith, UMG for sure but who else?
Rockandroll,
Mops

Studio musicians usually get a flat fee and that's it. That was the task of Rolling Stones Records back then, Polygram has nothing to do with it.

In that case, if we believe what the the Brazilian musicians said about the session, Polygram HAD a lot to do with. Polygram asked the musicians to play with Mick and Polygram represented the Rolling Stones in Brazil. Here is the parts of the interview that deals with the subject :

PAULO BRAGA: “In those days I used to do a lot of recording, day after day. When Polygram contacted me and said I had to do a session with Mick Jagger… See, at the time I liked Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull. I played with Wagner Tiso, Nivaldo Ornellas and Milton Nascimento. I also listened to Miles Davis and John Coltrane. We used to consider the Stones ‘old styled’. We used to say that ‘we were better than them’, meaning we played much better than the Stones. So, that Rolling Stones drummer, couldn’t play at all!”

"ANTONIO ADOLFO: “Mick Jagger was in Brazil and he contacted Polygram, which represented he Stones here (that was up to 1973, actually) And they scheduled a recording session and then they called people who they thought could do the job”

Rockandroll,
Mops

I know, but the recording was not done for Polygram, even if they helped organizing it because they knew the brazilian music scene better. The recording was done for Rolling Stones Records/Promotone. They own the masters.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: September 3, 2020 14:14

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
rollmops
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
rollmops
I hope the Brazilian musicians got paid by Polygram for their work at the recording studio in 1976. I wonder who gets money from the Stones' reissues of their old records? Mick & Keith, UMG for sure but who else?
Rockandroll,
Mops

Studio musicians usually get a flat fee and that's it. That was the task of Rolling Stones Records back then, Polygram has nothing to do with it.

In that case, if we believe what the the Brazilian musicians said about the session, Polygram HAD a lot to do with. Polygram asked the musicians to play with Mick and Polygram represented the Rolling Stones in Brazil. Here is the parts of the interview that deals with the subject :

PAULO BRAGA: “In those days I used to do a lot of recording, day after day. When Polygram contacted me and said I had to do a session with Mick Jagger… See, at the time I liked Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull. I played with Wagner Tiso, Nivaldo Ornellas and Milton Nascimento. I also listened to Miles Davis and John Coltrane. We used to consider the Stones ‘old styled’. We used to say that ‘we were better than them’, meaning we played much better than the Stones. So, that Rolling Stones drummer, couldn’t play at all!”

"ANTONIO ADOLFO: “Mick Jagger was in Brazil and he contacted Polygram, which represented he Stones here (that was up to 1973, actually) And they scheduled a recording session and then they called people who they thought could do the job”

Rockandroll,
Mops

I know, but the recording was not done for Polygram, even if they helped organizing it because they knew the brazilian music scene better. The recording was done for Rolling Stones Records/Promotone. They own the masters.

OK retired-dog I understand now; Polygram facilitated the transaction but RollingStonesrecord was the client.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: September 3, 2020 15:07

Quote
Topi
Four Stone Walls, read JordyLicks96's post above.

Apparently, Mick was not there on the first night (October 4, 1974) that Scarlet was recorded in Ronnie's basement, but added his vocals the next day (October 5). I didn't listen to the Planet Rock special yet.

The "November" part means Keith worked on the track (overdubs) in Switzerland in November 1974. Look at the Nico Zentgraf website entry and Jimmy Page's interview: "He [Keith] took the tapes to Switzerland"

Now, Whether Mick had the 1974 tapes with him in 1976 is not known.

Also, it's pretty evident by now that Ronnie was never involved.

Well, thank you again.

I had assumed that no more recordings were done in Ronnie's studio after his Own Album sessions. And that he was on tour in the autumn. So they had free access to it. And from earlier in this thread that first recording was in Switzerland.

So it's fair to say that Mick involved from the start. So who wrote the lyrocs and when?
All Keith? Somehow I think not.
Just a bunch but I think they, M& K, might we'll have worked on this before. IORR out-takes?

Taylor, Wyman an Watts elsewhere in Oct '74.
Rather than book Stones' studio time just easier to slot in down at the Sick where familiar and welcome?
A quick phone call to Ronnie or Faces manager orsomethhing.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: September 3, 2020 15:20

I thought I read Keith practically lived at the guesthouse of the Wick that year, so he probably didn't have to make any phone calls. (Except to invite Jimmy Page et al. , haha!)

Switzerland can't have been the first recording of Scarlet if what's said in the various interviews and the Nico Zentgraf website entries is true. (BTW, who exactly, in this thread, has claimed Switzerland was the first session?)

Whether any previous work (before Oct 4) was done, is, of course, anyone's guess. But it doesn't really seem that way if you believe what Keith and Jimmy Page say in the interviews: that is started out as a jam/demo session.

(However, when you think about it, would you really just invite Jimmy Page and the others into a studio if you have nothing to work on? I don't know. I'm not a musician.)

This Jagger quote is interesting (and partially contradicting):

"“I remember first jamming this with Jimmy and Keith in Ronnie’s basement studio. It was a great session.” – Mick Jagger"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-03 15:31 by Topi.

Re: Scarlet
Date: September 3, 2020 15:34

Quote
Topi
I thought I read Keith practically lived at the guesthouse of the Wick that year, so he probably didn't have to make any phone calls. (Except to invite Jimmy Page et al. , haha!)

Switzerland can't have been the first recording of Scarlet if what's said in the various interviews and the Nico Zentgraf website entries is true. (BTW, who exactly, in this thread, has claimed Switzerland was the first session?)

Whether any previous work (before Oct 4) was done, is, of course, anyone's guess. But it doesn't really seem that way if you believe what Keith and Jimmy Page say in the interviews: that is started out as a jam/demo session.

(However, when you think about it, would you really just invite Jimmy Page and the others into a studio if you have nothing to work on? I don't know. I'm not a musician.)

This Jagger quote is interesting (and partially contradicting):

"“I remember first jamming this with Jimmy and Keith in Ronnie’s basement studio. It was a great session.” – Mick Jagger"

I think Jimmy is the one to be trusted here. If so, Mick "jammed" with the others in Island Studiis the day after the session at the Wick.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: September 3, 2020 15:51

I agree...at least what Page has said (in both older and the more recent interviews) has been more consistent. smiling smiley

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: September 8, 2020 11:24

@Four Stone Walls:

This is a bit I read in Uncut magazine about "Scarlet":

"We had the idea for a song, and as happened in those days whoever was around played, says Richards. It might have been at the end of someone else's session or Jimmy happened to be there. Jimmy had, on the odd occasion, cropped up at the studio while we were playing".

So apparently, there was the idea of Scarlet prior to the Oct 4 session, no word on whether it had been worked on before that.


In the BBC Radio 2 interview this morning, they mixed things up pretty well. The host (Zoe Ball) and Keith were talking about Keith's basement, while they obviously meant Ronnie's basement (studio). Sheesh...but never mind any details, right? winking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-08 14:10 by Topi.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: September 8, 2020 13:45

It's good. Really good. There more I hear it the more I realize that. I like the guitars interchanging. If only they had recruited a guitarist of Page's quality.
I think Ronnie complemented Keith very well. But he didn't add anything to the mix. Like Taylor did, or someone like Page would have. Just thinking aloud...

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: September 9, 2020 15:42

Not sure if any of them remember the early 70's......

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: September 9, 2020 16:31

Quote
Topi

So apparently, there was the idea of Scarlet prior to the Oct 4 session, no word on whether it had been worked on before that.
)

That's my understanding, too. It's a riff/chorus that Keith had been playing (maybe even to Mick) and getting Page (who was/is sort of a Keith Richards groupie) to pitch in gave Keith something to test out and refine his idea.
Keith plays well with other guitarists. As the business got more formal it became more difficult to do that without paying them royalties or greater studio fees.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: September 9, 2020 18:00

As I said, Scarlet is really growing on me. But I wonder about one thing. Knight Commander always said he doesn't like digging in the past. But that is actually what he's doing these days.
Digging up and polishing outtakes. Successfully so I might add. But what happened to the Jagger who never wanted to look back? One new album in 15 years...

Re: Scarlet
Date: September 9, 2020 18:19

Ghost Town. Then covid-19 escalated and they couldn't continue working on the album.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-09 18:20 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 9, 2020 20:34

Quote
Stoneage
As I said, Scarlet is really growing on me. But I wonder about one thing. Knight Commander always said he doesn't like digging in the past. But that is actually what he's doing these days.
Digging up and polishing outtakes. Successfully so I might add. But what happened to the Jagger who never wanted to look back? One new album in 15 years...

It all changed over ten years ago. Specifically in 2008 when they made the record deal with UMG. At the time there were not any certainty that the Stones would do anything together again (they probably were closest to calling it quits than ever then). So what they (Mick) had in negotations to offer was their catalogue, and what that traditionally means is compilations and re-issues of old albums. And this time something extra: opening the vaults. Most likely UMG wanted that this time re-releasing the old albums needed to be done properly, that is, make real deluxe versions of them. Mick was forced to 'look back', since that was all he had at the time. Soon we got huge EXILE and SOME GIRLS nostalgia packages.

The idea of them doing new material, probably even a new album, occured afterwards, after the band had regrouped and toured for some time. But for that they made an extra or bonus deal with UMG. Probably BLUE & LONESOME fulfilled that contract.

Anyway, the original deal with UMG was renewed in 2018. Who knows what is the role of 'new album' in this new deal (Keith's suggestion that they might release the new stuff in some other form indicates that there is not much contractual obligation for them), but as we have seen, new compilations (HONK) and re-issues (GHS) surely belong to this new contract. And like Mick mentioned there is more to come in terms of old vaults stuff. The new store also promised new Stones releases in future as well.

So what changed Mick's attitude? Well, one might suggest that he suddenly became nostalgic... Or that there are some pure business reasons.. What's your guess? winking smiley

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-09 20:50 by Doxa.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: September 9, 2020 21:54

The latter presumably, Doxa. Come to think of it the 2007-2012 hiatus was a very long one that late in their career.
The 50th jubilee made them come back to life again. But I guess that was never a certainty.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 10, 2020 18:07

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Stoneage
As I said, Scarlet is really growing on me. But I wonder about one thing. Knight Commander always said he doesn't like digging in the past. But that is actually what he's doing these days.
Digging up and polishing outtakes. Successfully so I might add. But what happened to the Jagger who never wanted to look back? One new album in 15 years...

It all changed over ten years ago. Specifically in 2008 when they made the record deal with UMG. At the time there were not any certainty that the Stones would do anything together again (they probably were closest to calling it quits than ever then). So what they (Mick) had in negotations to offer was their catalogue, and what that traditionally means is compilations and re-issues of old albums. And this time something extra: opening the vaults. Most likely UMG wanted that this time re-releasing the old albums needed to be done properly, that is, make real deluxe versions of them. Mick was forced to 'look back', since that was all he had at the time. Soon we got huge EXILE and SOME GIRLS nostalgia packages.

The idea of them doing new material, probably even a new album, occured afterwards, after the band had regrouped and toured for some time. But for that they made an extra or bonus deal with UMG. Probably BLUE & LONESOME fulfilled that contract.

Anyway, the original deal with UMG was renewed in 2018. Who knows what is the role of 'new album' in this new deal (Keith's suggestion that they might release the new stuff in some other form indicates that there is not much contractual obligation for them), but as we have seen, new compilations (HONK) and re-issues (GHS) surely belong to this new contract. And like Mick mentioned there is more to come in terms of old vaults stuff. The new store also promised new Stones releases in future as well.

So what changed Mick's attitude? Well, one might suggest that he suddenly became nostalgic... Or that there are some pure business reasons.. What's your guess? winking smiley

- Doxa

Aside from the ridiculous hits comp in 2012, it wouldn't surprise me at all if UMe/UMG/etc whoever told the Stones ie Mick that we're going to reissue some albums with extra material since there's nothing new and it's up to you if you want to finish any tracks but something will be released.

Why they skimped on EXILE and put out mostly ridiculous tracks with SOME GIRLS I will never understand considering what's leftover still, yet alone tracks that weren't from the SG sessions. STICKY FINGERS had some interesting things on it but there could've been a lot more.

At least with GHS there's some different things: the new mix, the Glyn John mixes, the 2 leftover sessions tracks - of which they still could've put more of on, like Through The Lonely Nights - and the earlier takes, which is fantastic.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Munichhilton ()
Date: September 10, 2020 18:23

That would’ve been good, you gotta think there’s a couple outtakes of Through The Lonely Nights

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: September 10, 2020 19:57

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Stoneage
As I said, Scarlet is really growing on me. But I wonder about one thing. Knight Commander always said he doesn't like digging in the past. But that is actually what he's doing these days.
Digging up and polishing outtakes. Successfully so I might add. But what happened to the Jagger who never wanted to look back? One new album in 15 years...

It all changed over ten years ago. Specifically in 2008 when they made the record deal with UMG. At the time there were not any certainty that the Stones would do anything together again (they probably were closest to calling it quits than ever then). So what they (Mick) had in negotations to offer was their catalogue, and what that traditionally means is compilations and re-issues of old albums. And this time something extra: opening the vaults. Most likely UMG wanted that this time re-releasing the old albums needed to be done properly, that is, make real deluxe versions of them. Mick was forced to 'look back', since that was all he had at the time. Soon we got huge EXILE and SOME GIRLS nostalgia packages.

The idea of them doing new material, probably even a new album, occured afterwards, after the band had regrouped and toured for some time. But for that they made an extra or bonus deal with UMG. Probably BLUE & LONESOME fulfilled that contract.

Anyway, the original deal with UMG was renewed in 2018. Who knows what is the role of 'new album' in this new deal (Keith's suggestion that they might release the new stuff in some other form indicates that there is not much contractual obligation for them), but as we have seen, new compilations (HONK) and re-issues (GHS) surely belong to this new contract. And like Mick mentioned there is more to come in terms of old vaults stuff. The new store also promised new Stones releases in future as well.

So what changed Mick's attitude? Well, one might suggest that he suddenly became nostalgic... Or that there are some pure business reasons.. What's your guess? winking smiley

- Doxa

Doxa, why were they so close to calling it quits then? More so than the WW III period in the late 80's? I'd like to hear the details.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 10, 2020 20:17

Ha ha - probably because of the BANG tour and then Keith's book!

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 11, 2020 13:30

Quote
Elmo Lewis


Doxa, why were they so close to calling it quits then? More so than the WW III period in the late 80's? I'd like to hear the details.

Probably 'calling it quits' is not the right way to describe it, since I don't think they ever think in terms like that. It would be more like: after A BIGGER BANG tour they left the option open if they ever will do something again in terms of new records or tours. They simply didn't know if there will be a spark, a will and physical condition again to start it all again (and I guess the long and exhausting tour with Keith's terrible accident they probably had serious and justified doubts about the future). They didn't have any concrete plans, and they negotiated the new deal with Universal with that in mind. That of not including new album/s to the deal indicates very strongly that they really didn't want to being obliged to anything that would need a group effort. As it turned out to be the new record deal was to be consisted of nostalgia: and we were treated with whatever kind of archive material in the upcoming years. It was all looking back.

Anyway, I think the most strongest signal of 'probably all of this is over' is what Keith did during those 'quiet years' from 2008 to 2011. We probably never will know the true extent of what harm the 'tree accident' caused to Keith, and what would his future looked like back then. However, he made the deal about his autobiography already just before the tour ended. (If we look the document of the last (02) shows of the tour, Keith really looked and sounded like that probably this part of life actually is over - that's my impression anyway). Then, just after the tour there were the terrible news about his wife. Keith didn't say anything in public, but was as normal promoting SHINE A LIGHT, but it is almost shocking to hear what his daughter revealed afterwards: what at the same was occuring behind the screen, and how strongly Patti's cancer affected his dad. Keith, for example, get rid of his basement studio.

After Patti got thankfully well, Keith put all his energy to making LIFE, a process he himself has described a tough one.

This is what Steve Jordan years later (2015) pointed out:

After Keith did his book tour, he actually contemplated retirement. I told him, What are you talking about? That's ridiculous, don't ever bring that up again... I thought (the idea of Keith Richards retiring was) the craziest thing I ever heard. He felt comfortable with where he was and what he had done and what he had achieved. But knowing Keith, to not have him pick up an instrument and play, it was weird. When you're a musician, you don't retire. You play up until you can't breathe.

It really looks like LIFE was a kind of 'that's it' project for Keith. As he would say in 2015: "I thought the book might be the crowning glory. I just hit one of those points. Do you have anything more to say?"

Keith himself, of course, was all those years from 2008 to 2011 talking in public about 'getting the boys together' and all that PR talk, but that is what he confessed in 2011 - which actually implies that the idea of retirement had occurred earlier than Jordan had imagined:

I hardly played at all for two years. I'm sort of basically recovering from the book, and this is my therapy at the moment. In the process of doing it, my chops are coming back.

Well, Keith most likely was serious in Fallon show when promoting EXILE that he is "rusty" (and his contributions to bonus album were minimal) - surely if the guy doesn't play hardly at all. (Anyway, the 'therapy' - making CROSS-EYED HEART - worked and little by little Keith got his chops back, of which we still are enjoying).

Surely the release of LIFE caused much public attention (another chapter in ever-lasting Mick/Keith-drama), which might or not effect to Mick's desire to tour and everything, or delay those a bit, but I think much more serious events had happened before that as far as the future of the Stones as a touring and recording band go. I seriously think that no matter what happend during the 80's ('WW3') that of one of the Glimmer Twins wanting to do a solo career was never such a big threat to the future for the band than one of the Glimmer Twins thinking retirement (or as a musician was actually retired for two years or so).

And this is just trying to construct the doings of Keith during those years - we don't know how much that reflected the situation in the band (or what they really were thinking despite PR stuff they talked in public), or what Mick was up to at the time (he concentrated his creative power from 2008 to 2011 to SuperHaevy and EXILE & SOME GIRLS). Ronnie was a total mess (but that's nothing unusual...)

Another interesting detail is what Rocky Dijon once mentioned - that they were actually thinking of selling all their catalogue to Universal at the time. That would have mean really the end.

- Doxa



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-12 00:12 by Doxa.

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: harlem shuffle ()
Date: September 11, 2020 16:02

Well Doxa you are probably correct about these things,but it,s not exactly something new when Keith speaks bullshit about Mick Jagger.He has done that the last 45 years,maybee longer.So his book Life doesn,t matter at all.As Bill Wyman said about the book,more than 50% is fiction

Re: Scarlet
Date: September 11, 2020 16:12

Quote
harlem shuffle
Well Doxa you are probably correct about these things,but it,s not exactly something new when Keith speaks bullshit about Mick Jagger.He has done that the last 45 years,maybee longer.So his book Life doesn,t matter at all.As Bill Wyman said about the book,more than 50% is fiction

Source?

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: harlem shuffle ()
Date: September 11, 2020 16:24

I don,t wanna try to find sources for things i read in many years,in old music magasines,articles other papermagasines.It was an answer to Doxa,s writing.I never think that The Stones would have break up because of Life.As an spokesman for Jagger said after the book came out,it,s Bern like that for the last 40-45 years.Keith has been a bitter man for decades against Jagger

Re: Scarlet
Date: September 11, 2020 17:11

It must be tiresome to have a favourite band, immensely hating one of the members...

Anyone else who saw Bill's alleged statement of 50 percent of "Life" being fiction?

Re: Scarlet
Posted by: harlem shuffle ()
Date: September 11, 2020 17:56

Hating who?Who,s hating who?Dandelion Powderman?

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