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Four Stone Walls

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Stoneage
My guess is that IORR was Ronnie's song. Then one might speculate why he didn't make any fuzz when Jagger and Richards claimed it theirs...

Mick gave Ronnie 'I can feel the fire'. The story is that they did a swap.

. I think I Can Feel The Fire is the better song.Although Wood plays some great guitar in that concert with Rod Stewart



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-28 23:22 by Taylor1.

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georgelicks

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Hairball
So now wondering ...whatever happened to Scarlet? It's been less than a week and it seemingly has disappeared already from all of the press and the general public?
What started out with a massive bang of publicity, with headlines screaming NEW STONES FEATURING JIMMY PAGE practically everywhere you look, has all of the sudden ended in somewhat of a whimper.
To be fair the same happened with the superior Criss Cross, but maybe it's a sign that the general public/real world outside of IORR doesn't really give a crap about some outdated "treasures" that have been dug up and scraped from the barrel. I have a feeling the real world/general public would appreciate and accept a brand new album of originals vs. this dredging up of ancient artifacts and Ghost Town showed some of that acceptance

Rock music and it's audience is getting smaller as we speak, the old fans are dying and the new ones could care less about outtakes from 45-50 years ago, the radio won't play a song from 1974, Ghost Town sounds fresh and current and it got airplay and some media atention, it worked great for a rock song in 2020.

Sadly, the Stones waited too long to release outtakes, 20-25 years ago the audience was still there (see Beatles anthology series, 3 #1 albums in a row), big selling physical albums and rock was still strong.

Now in 2020, half of the rock audience from 1995 is dead, album sales are 5% of the 1995 sales, 90% of the market is streaming and rock music is now a cult genre.

Times have changed.

Yes, and I was about to pos ..... that they shoulda put Scarlet on the New Album.

Which isn't a bad title for a new album .....

Or perhaps Nearly New Album ..... Nearly Still Life ..... Good Things Come to those who Wait...... Time Waits for Everything ..... Fifteen Years and Counting ..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-28 23:45 by Four Stone Walls.

After hearing Scarlet a few times, I must say I quite like it.

I agree it doesn't sound totally like a Stones song ... it has some very Stonesy elements, most of all the vocals and rhythm guitar, melody ... but the drums and bass aren't anywhere near Charlie and Bill. Maybe if they had put some reverb on the drums and make 'em sound more like on Slave or something from GHS it would have sounded more Stonesy, but it's still cool.

Not sure if that acoustic is from '74 or recent, but it would've sounded better without it, I think.

My first impression of the vocals was that the intro line was a recent overdub by Mick, but now I doubt it. The later vocals, like the bridge definitely sounds like vintage Mick, not unlike some stuff on Tattoo You as well. Keith is there for sure too. Some of the "Scarlet" chats towards the end could be recent overdubs to complete the song.

Page's lead guitar definitely is recognizable, similar to many of the solos on Physical Graffiti, but it's perhaps a bit overly nasal mid-rangey.

Overall quite a messy mix, but it's cool!

This is so true.

1995 seems like 100 years ago.

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georgelicks

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Hairball
So now wondering ...whatever happened to Scarlet? It's been less than a week and it seemingly has disappeared already from all of the press and the general public?
What started out with a massive bang of publicity, with headlines screaming NEW STONES FEATURING JIMMY PAGE practically everywhere you look, has all of the sudden ended in somewhat of a whimper.
To be fair the same happened with the superior Criss Cross, but maybe it's a sign that the general public/real world outside of IORR doesn't really give a crap about some outdated "treasures" that have been dug up and scraped from the barrel. I have a feeling the real world/general public would appreciate and accept a brand new album of originals vs. this dredging up of ancient artifacts and Ghost Town showed some of that acceptance

Rock music and it's audience is getting smaller as we speak, the old fans are dying and the new ones could care less about outtakes from 45-50 years ago, the radio won't play a song from 1974, Ghost Town sounds fresh and current and it got airplay and some media atention, it worked great for a rock song in 2020.

Sadly, the Stones waited too long to release outtakes, 20-25 years ago the audience was still there (see Beatles anthology series, 3 #1 albums in a row), big selling physical albums and rock was still strong.

Now in 2020, half of the rock audience from 1995 is dead, album sales are 5% of the 1995 sales, 90% of the market is streaming and rock music is now a cult genre.

Times have changed.

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georgemcdonnell314

1995 seems like 100 years ago.

To me it seems like it was just "yesterday" -- Voodoo-Lounge-Tour in Europe ....

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georgelicks

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Hairball
So now wondering ...whatever happened to Scarlet? It's been less than a week and it seemingly has disappeared already from all of the press and the general public?
What started out with a massive bang of publicity, with headlines screaming NEW STONES FEATURING JIMMY PAGE practically everywhere you look, has all of the sudden ended in somewhat of a whimper.
To be fair the same happened with the superior Criss Cross, but maybe it's a sign that the general public/real world outside of IORR doesn't really give a crap about some outdated "treasures" that have been dug up and scraped from the barrel. I have a feeling the real world/general public would appreciate and accept a brand new album of originals vs. this dredging up of ancient artifacts and Ghost Town showed some of that acceptance

Rock music and it's audience is getting smaller as we speak, the old fans are dying and the new ones could care less about outtakes from 45-50 years ago, the radio won't play a song from 1974, Ghost Town sounds fresh and current and it got airplay and some media atention, it worked great for a rock song in 2020.

Sadly, the Stones waited too long to release outtakes, 20-25 years ago the audience was still there (see Beatles anthology series, 3 #1 albums in a row), big selling physical albums and rock was still strong.

Now in 2020, half of the rock audience from 1995 is dead, album sales are 5% of the 1995 sales, 90% of the market is streaming and rock music is now a cult genre.

Times have changed.

My question regarding Scarlet was somewhat rhetorical, but you pretty much confirmed everything I said, and the time span you mentioned helped explain the failure (or lack of success) of these releases.
Again, the Stones need to release new and original music - that seems to be the bottom line here. Maybe after the GHS bombardment in which they seem to be killing/wasting time, they'll get back
to what matters to stay relevant - release some new and original music. Outside of a handful of diehards who buy this stuff, nobody really cares, and they certainly won't be making very much money off of this.
Universal must be going nuts, and the various bundles they've concocted - including the 7" Scarlet vinyl/single lp bundle, shows they're desparate to try and make some money out of this mess. Would have been nice to offer the 7" on it's own for those who want it, but why do that when you can stick it to the fans?

And speaking of the Beatles and Anthology (which was and still is FANTASTIC), they had their own versions of Frankenstein songs, i.e. digging up something from the past and adding something new to it.
They unearthed Lennons Free as a Bird and Real Love which were then embellished by the remaining Beatles resulting in new Beatles tunes, but with mixed results imo. They weren't too bad, and I thought Real Love was the better of the two, but ultimately I think all of the Lennon demoes in their original state are best they way they were - left alone. Same could probably be said for Scarlet before Mick let loose all over it 46 years after the fact - would be cool to hear the unscathed/rough version with just Keith on vocals. Still wouldn't sound like the Stones (probably closer to a Keith solo tune...or a Page/Richards tune...), but it might be more interesting as an oddball artifact.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-29 00:34 by Hairball.

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Georgelicks
Rock music and it's audience is getting smaller as we speak, the old fans are dying and the new ones could care less about outtakes from 45-50 years ago, the radio won't play a song from 1974, Ghost Town sounds fresh and current and it got airplay and some media atention, it worked great for a rock song in 2020.

Sadly, the Stones waited too long to release outtakes, 20-25 years ago the audience was still there (see Beatles anthology series, 3 #1 albums in a row), big selling physical albums and rock was still strong.

Now in 2020, half of the rock audience from 1995 is dead, album sales are 5% of the 1995 sales, 90% of the market is streaming and rock music is now a cult genre.

Times have changed.

A good point. I have been trying to communicate the same thing here. Over and over I'm afraid. The internet has diluted this business. They were late on the ball.

When stuff like this is prereleased, I rarely listen to it more than a time or two. I don't want to be tired of the song when it arrives in its final incarnation. I want to enjoy it in the context to which it is intended, and I don't really want it "weighted" good or bad in my mind beforehand. So its still gonna be new music to me along about Sept 4 or Sept 11 or whenever.

Nobody is making any money from this is my bet. Its a loss leader, a more or less promotional item that is easy to distribute cheaply via the net. Thats why its not really available without purchasing it with the LP, they don't want to absorb the costs of physically distributing a low price item.

And with old material like this that was marginal back then and only more so now, in terms of general audience numbers, its not amazing that it has dropped from sight. There was a reason they didn't release it the first time around and time has only made the indifference more apparent. Its only real value is that it is (more or less) vintage unreleased Rolling Stones but that appeal fades quickly with an audience who were largely not even here when it was recorded.

Its not like anyone is ever going to choose it as their favorite Rolling Stones song, or even among them. Present company possibly excepted.


jb

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Taylor1

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Four Stone Walls

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Stoneage
My guess is that IORR was Ronnie's song. Then one might speculate why he didn't make any fuzz when Jagger and Richards claimed it theirs...

Mick gave Ronnie 'I can feel the fire'. The story is that they did a swap.

. I think I Can Feel The Fire is the better song.Although Wood plays some great guitar in that concert with Rod Stewart

So do I 100% I always thought that IORR was a bit of a throwaway and lightweight.
But (I guess) Jagger turned it into something with something.

And live Keith, Charlie and Bill can make it kick the proverbial arse.
Mick's possibly.

I can’t get it out of my head that Keith Richards should have sung that song
his voice and way of singing

To conclude this roofless buildings musings on Scarlet I had thought earlier ....

WHAT IF it was a sense of fun and freedom for Keith to take a song and record it independently with a fresh bunch of musicians, one of whom he had good association with, make that two. A kind of proto Winos.

Had he enjoyed Ronnie's relaxed basement vibe so much (c.f. Nelcote) with musicians coming and going that he preferred it greatly to the 'regime' of Stones's studio sessions as they had become. (with Taylor now one of 'Mick's boys')

He might very well have wanted to have a stab at this song with things under His control. A chance to assert some artistic and bohemian freedom. The irony being that eventually Mick did get his hands on it and control it's production.

I like Black and Blue a lot but there's little doubt about who was the boss producer there.

I sense that Keith had more fun and freedom working on John Phillips' album than on B & B, even though Jagger was involved, cos Keith was more musically involved with the songs and with the composer's lifestyle ofcourse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-29 01:50 by Four Stone Walls.

One more musing before the rain sets in .......

Someone above - KRiffhard - suggested an album of all these interesting miscellaneous stones / semi- stones out-takes.

Yes, that would have more artistic integrity ......
and call it Oddstones and Sodstones

It is a good song, would be better without Page.

It,s not a very good somg,the more i listen to it,It,s not going nowhere.Just a halffinished track who needs a lot of work.I just pass of this one,totally uniterrested

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Four Stone Walls
To conclude this roofless buildings musings on Scarlet I had thought earlier ....

WHAT IF it was a sense of fun and freedom for Keith to take a song and record it independently with a fresh bunch of musicians, one of whom he had good association with, make that two. A kind of proto Winos.

Had he enjoyed Ronnie's relaxed basement vibe so much (c.f. Nelcote) with musicians coming and going that he preferred it greatly to the 'regime' of Stones's studio sessions as they had become. (with Taylor now one of 'Mick's boys')

He might very well have wanted to have a stab at this song with things under His control. A chance to assert some artistic and bohemian freedom. The irony being that eventually Mick did get his hands on it and control it's production.

I like Black and Blue a lot but there's little doubt about who was the boss producer there.

I sense that Keith had more fun and freedom working on John Phillips' album than on B & B, even though Jagger was involved, cos Keith was more musically involved with the songs and with the composer's lifestyle ofcourse.

You mad bro?
Cause you sound mad.

ROCKMAN

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sdstonesguy
It is a good song, would be better without Page.

This is an interesting point of wiev.
Maybe you're right!

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Four Stone Walls
To conclude this roofless buildings musings on Scarlet I had thought earlier ....

WHAT IF it was a sense of fun and freedom for Keith to take a song and record it independently with a fresh bunch of musicians, one of whom he had good association with, make that two. A kind of proto Winos.

Had he enjoyed Ronnie's relaxed basement vibe so much (c.f. Nelcote) with musicians coming and going that he preferred it greatly to the 'regime' of Stones's studio sessions as they had become. (with Taylor now one of 'Mick's boys')

He might very well have wanted to have a stab at this song with things under His control. A chance to assert some artistic and bohemian freedom. The irony being that eventually Mick did get his hands on it and control it's production.

I like Black and Blue a lot but there's little doubt about who was the boss producer there.

I sense that Keith had more fun and freedom working on John Phillips' album than on B & B, even though Jagger was involved, cos Keith was more musically involved with the songs and with the composer's lifestyle ofcourse.

I agree with quite a bit of this. The downside of this is that while Keith working that way would have produced a lot of great demos, without the structure provided by Jagger few of them would have become songs. Keith needed Mick -- and later, Steve Jordan -- just to *finish* things.
I also think that working for the band forced Keith to address his drug use. Not sure he'd still be here if he had gone out on his own in the '70s.

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Rockman

I don't think Led Zeppelin had any recording sessions in Ronnie's basement around this time, or ever for that matter.
And Page himself said he was invited down for a session, not that he was already there.

Whatever the case, if Keith thought "it came out well...we better use it"...why was it gathering dust for over 46 years without seeing the light of day?
Sounds like the typical promotional BS, and surprised he didn't say "as good as anything off of Exile".

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I don't think that's the full interview. Probably went more like this

"My recollection is we walked in at the end of a Zeppelin session. They were leaving, and we were booked in next and I believe Jimmy decided to stay. So we recorded a bunch of tracks, Mr. D, You Got The Silver, Start Me Up. And while playing I saw Muddy Waters. He was there painting the goddamn ceiling. The King of blues, painting the goddamn ceiling, would you believe. Cough cough. Anyway I just put the antenna up, and Scarlet came to me and Jimmy. Best track since Wanna Hold You. Ronnie wasn't present. He was out jamming with Jimi Hendrix or was it Gerry and the Pacemakers"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-29 19:09 by Erik_Snow.

One could make a list of this but there are some factors which made it difficult for the Stones in the seventies. And I think it could be attributed to work ethics.Here are some (there are others):

- Tax exile. They all lived on different places now.
- Keith's drug abuse.
- Celebrity life styles.
- Junkie hours. I'm sure Keith liked working evenings and nights. But what about the others?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-29 20:06 by Stoneage.

Since Jimmy added his overdub at 8 in the morning at Island, the day after tracking at The Wick (according to himself), Keith's story sounds a bit dubious.

Why? Keith would never arrive a session that early in the morning

Erik_Snow, you forgot the blood change!

This thread got be back listening to Plundered My Soul. A great track which I really loved when it came out a decade ago, but haven't really listened to in the last several years.

I immediately noticed that Jag's 2010 PMS vocals are much more nasally, shrieky than his 2020 vocals on Scarlet (if indeed all of his vocals on Scarlet are from 2020). Maybe it's because they are lower in mix, or tight (well, loose-tight) with Keith's, but he just sounds fantastic on Scarlet, and a little grating on PMS.

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jbwelda
When stuff like this is prereleased, I rarely listen to it more than a time or two. I don't want to be tired of the song when it arrives in its final incarnation.

It's not "prereleased", it's released. It's a single.

So you would not've been a Stones fan in the 1960s seeing that they released a lot of singles, most of which didn't end up on albums, well, more so in the US than the UK but you would've waited to listen to Jumpin' Jack Flash and Honky Tonk Women until they came out on THROUGH THE PAST DARKLY? That's the album they're "from".

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda
When stuff like this is prereleased, I rarely listen to it more than a time or two. I don't want to be tired of the song when it arrives in its final incarnation.

It's not "prereleased", it's released. It's a single.

So you would not've been a Stones fan in the 1960s seeing that they released a lot of singles, most of which didn't end up on albums, well, more so in the US than the UK but you would've waited to listen to Jumpin' Jack Flash and Honky Tonk Women until they came out on THROUGH THE PAST DARKLY? That's the album they're "from".

Good on ya' GLS for waiting for a deep dive on your preferred mode of delivery and the way it plays on the album (cd/br).
I try to do that (not listen to streams etc) when I go to shows when I can't hit the opener..

Thats totally apples and oranges and a Trumpian attempt at creating an argument when you know good and well thats not what I meant.

OK its not "prereleased" (on youtube for instance) even though it is not really available on a single THAT HAS BEEN ACTUALLY RELEASED as defined as being available, commercially, to hold in ones hands. I am purposely discounting whatever download might be currently available if there is such an animal. The fact remains the single will not be physically available until Sept 4 so in my little mind, that makes it a prerelease at this point.

Thank you.

My point, once again, is that I am trying to not burn out on a marginal track before it is released in context so I can maybe enjoy it more in that context. As a "single" I think it is pretty pathetic, actually, and will never see any real radio play which was the point of a single, aside from pure novelty. I doubt any teenage girls are going to swoon to the sound of it, for example.

jb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-30 06:33 by jbwelda.

Well the context is a bit strange. Never intended for the album proper, recorded after the fact,but 46 yrs later given a bit of polish and it finds itself on a second cd or second vinyl with some other demoes/throwaways, etc.
It's sort of one of those unwanted little bastard children that has finally found a home... a foster home. Somebody may care for it, but the chances of it succeeding aren't too good - it's already been rejected and abandoned.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Jesus Hairball I hope you didn’t preorder this turd of a release. 2020 sucks and you won’t let some of us fondly remember the mid 70’s music scene

Lol...no I didn't preorder the Scarlet single, but did preorder the double vinyl, double cd, and cassette, so looks like I'm stuck with Scarlet whether I liked it or not....

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......