In an earlier thread, I apparently hurt a few feelings when I suggested that EOMS was a greatly overrated CD. Someone even suggested I use the words, in my opinion, so he could better distinguish between my opinion and Stones fact. I thought this was a forum for all of us Stones fans to express what we like or dislike about the Stones.

So here I go again. I object to the lyrics of Sweet Black Angel, specifically the line that goes, Ten little n's sitting on the wall, her brothers been a falling, falling one by one. Was this an attempt to be cute or controversial? Or was it an attempt to appeal to racists and rednecks? No one will know for sure but this is 2010, and this language is insulting and abrasive. I would suggest that the line be changed to, Ten little children, or Ten little brothers. I like the catchy tune, the lyrics are intelligent, and the harmonizing is great. But that one line is offensive. I do not think the Stones are racists, as they have always used black musicians and have been influenced by many black artists. I am flabbergasted that Jagger would feel comfortable writing and singing these lyrics. Also, maybe more black fans would attend Stones concerts if there were not so many studio songs that imply that blacks are inferior to whites.

I think you are missing the point of the song.

Read the lyrics of the song more closely fliflam. Removing the word you find offensive would lessen the song's impact, which is not racist at all.(In my humble opinion, that is.)

Why don't you tell me what the point of the song is? It does not matter. The N word, in whatever context, is insulting to most blacks and is especially disturbing to this white man who was living in Memphis when King was shot and killed. The N word is utterly offensive, in whatever context, in my opinion.

Oh come on, the context of the song is the perceived injustice meeted out to Angela Davis, black woman, teacher & radical. It is clearly a message of support to her and by extension her race. The 'n' word is how people referred to her,how people objectified her, so informed part of her reality. Why be pathetically squeamish of a word rather than see the song in context as a tribute to a freedom fighter. Do you also feel "flabbergasted" listening to Lennon sing "woman is the nigger of the world"?

Ask yourself what is more important, empathising with an oppressed woman's plight or worrying about possibly offending someone with an un pc term?

You cant understand Jagger half the time anyway. I personally didnt even know this until YOU brought it up.

I don't know about sweet black angel, I'll read the lyrics carefully and try to understand it - other iorreans will obviously have their interpretations or can refer some facts that may have inspired it - but my modest guess is that they are not racist at all, they play with stereotypes, with a certain caustic irony, and this might be a persuasive way to show us how blind and unjust some stereotypes are - if I remember correctly, Jagger explains this idea referring to the polemical verse "black girls just wanna get f.... all night, and I don't have that much jam", and says "we were only joking about an existing common place" (somehow showing how ridicolous this common place is).

I think that a PERSON, any PERSON with a minimum of intelligence and irony, whatever his skin is yellow, black, white or he´s green with antenas and coming from another planet, will not be offended by "some girls" lyrics and won't be ashamed to have a smile about it.

I concur... I never had heard the word within the context of the song... in fact, prior to my posting this... I looked it up and discovered that you were correct.... so kudos to you for advertising this to the thousands of folks who were heretofore blissfully unaware... (probably not obvious... but I am being sarcastic)

Accusing the Stones of being rascist is about as dumb a thing as a person can say.... They are heavily influenced by wonderful black musicians and have had many black musicsians up on stage with them over their career....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 03:25 by HopeYouGuessMyName.

Jesus wept. Dont you just love it when people go out of their way to get offended on other people's behalf?

What next?

Maybe they should remove 'Stupid Girl' from 'Aftermath' now as well in case every woman on the planet interprets it as Jagger saying that women are intellectually inferior to men. He uses the word 'fag' in 'When The Whip Comes Down' too - I suppose that should be removed too.

> Also, maybe more black fans would attend Stones concerts if there were not so many studio songs that imply that blacks are inferior to whites.

'So many' ? Name them, then.


So youre suggesting that black fans dont go to Stones shows due to racist lyrics on a record most of them have never heard - and its got nothing to do with high ticket prices (which would exclude potential fans in many demographics) or the fact that they dont tend to support rock music in general as they have other forms of music which they can more closely identify with? You know, the sort of music where the word 'nigger' (spare me this 'n' word PC-nonsense. Do you use letters for other words you dont like?) seems to be used quite liberally and often in a manner which is a lot more offensive?

What absolute tripe.

It goes without saying that as far as 'Sweet Black Angel' goes, you completely miss the point of the song and the context it's written in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 03:48 by Gazza.

Awwwwww yes ... I never played Terrifying when IKE was alive ....I mean that dirty as a dog line is so-so cruel.....



ROCKMAN

if a black man is offended by the n-word in Sweet Black Angel, then can i, as a white man, be offended by the use of "Honky" in Honky Tonk Woman and demand it's removal?

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Tseverin
Oh come on, the context of the song is the perceived injustice meeted out to Angela Davis, black woman, teacher & radical. It is clearly a message of support to her and by extension her race. The 'n' word is how people referred to her,how people objectified her, so informed part of her reality. Why be pathetically squeamish of a word rather than see the song in context as a tribute to a freedom fighter. Do you also feel "flabbergasted" listening to Lennon sing "woman is the nigger of the world"?

Ask yourself what is more important, empathising with an oppressed woman's plight or worrying about possibly offending someone with an un pc term?

Exactly. He's saying that she's SEEN by racists as a 'nigger' (note inverted comma. For the benefit of dumb people I'm not using that term to insult anyone). He's not CALLING her one. Dylan does the same in 'Hurricane' (The judge made Rubin’s witnesses drunkards from the slums/To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
/And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger/No one doubted that he pulled the trigger).

And on the day Angela Davis was released, the Stones played the song in concert preceded by Jagger asking 'Who Got Freed Today? Angela Davis - F**king Great!"

Some racist.

By the way, the line 'ten little niggers sitting on the wall/her brothers are falling/one by one' is a quite obvious parody of (or nod to) 'Ten Little Indians', a song which was then adapted as 'Ten Little Niggers'. The song refers to a group of people being killed off one by one - Jagger is making a comparison in his song to Angela Davis' 'struggle'.

Here's the original - [en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 03:56 by Gazza.

Flilflam: get mad about the rap music or crap music that uses this word and preach to them about the history and meaning of this word, then get angry abit every other racial or stereotype offense to blacks whites Asians latinos and then maybe you will have some ground to
argue. You must read 'words' in
context.

Go Dawgs!

It's actually a literary allusion to Agatha Christie's novel TEN LITTLE NIGGERS, later retitled TEN LITTLE INDIANS (aka AND THEN THERE WERE NONE) -- from wikipedia (note that "Sweet Black Angel" even has the "hanging on the wall" ref.):

Eight people of different social classes have been invited to a mansion on the fictional Soldier Island ("Nigger Island" in the original 1939 UK publication, "Indian Island" in the 1940 US publication), which is based upon Burgh Island off the coast of Devon. Upon arriving, they are told that their hosts, a Mr. and Mrs. U.N.Owen (Ulick Norman Owen and Una Nancy Owen ), are currently away, but that the guests will be attended to by Thomas and Ethel Rogers. Each guest finds in his or her room an odd bit of bric-a-brac and a framed copy of the nursery rhyme "Ten Little Soldiers" ("Niggers" or "Indians" in respective earlier editions) hanging on the wall.

More here:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Someone's got too much time on their hands.

Should a diabetic take offense to sweet in Sweet Black Angel?

>Someone's got too much time on their hands

Is that aimed at me? I caught that allusion years ago; it took about one minute to copy the information from wikipedia.

nice song...so glad we don't have censorship...people would make such questionable decisions...

censorship is wrong everyone should be allowed to say what they think and feel and to censor something that was written decades ago is stupid because you are censoring history . if history can be censored then we are all in trouble because we can erase past atrocities like the holocaust.

Got a sweet black angel,
Got a pin up girl,
Got a sweet black angel,
Up upon my wall.
Well, she ain't no singer
And she ain't no star,
But she sure talk good,
And she move so fast.
But the gal in danger,
Yeah, de gal in chains,
But she keep on pushin',
Would ya take her place?
She countin' up de minutes,
She countin' up de days,
She's a sweet black angel, woh,
Not a sweet black slave.
Ten little niggers
Sittin' on de wall,
Her brothers been a fallin',
Fallin' one by one.
For a judge they murdered
And a judge they stole,
Now de judge he gonna judge her
For all dat he's worth.
Well de gal in danger,
De gal in chains,
But she keep on pushin'
Would you do the same?
She countin' up de minutes,
She countin' up de days,
She's a sweet black angel,
Not a gun toting teacher,
Not a red lovin' school mom,
Ain't someone gonna free her,
Free de sweet black slave,
Free de sweet black slave

You are missing the point of the song, and letting a word incite you. How many times to rap musicians use the word nigger? And lets look back to Lennon's song, Woman is the Nigger of the World. Again the Stones recorded Sweet Black Angel with the parody in mind, but also to make a social commentary about the injustice of the legal system towards minorities. And some English rich boys singing about the white southern judicial system, using the word for added effect. A great song and a great commentary, that SHOULD NEVER be censored!

Gazza, missed your prior explication, kudos.

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Glam Descendant
>Someone's got too much time on their hands

Is that aimed at me? I caught that allusion years ago; it took about one minute to copy the information from wikipedia.

Lol no Glam, I had the OP in mind as having too much time to get all offended at a word in a song.

EDIT: For the record, I only get offended at negative references towards Elvis in songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 06:19 by studiorambo.

Gazza, good call on citing "Hurricane". That's the first thing I thought of after reading what flilflam had written. Dylan used the "N" word in the context of a passionate song about an injustice against a black man. He made his point with clarity and conviction. How could that be offensive to any thinking person? Words are just words, and have meaning within the context of their being used. We've become so damn PC in this country that an elderly woman I know was chided for using the word "niggardly". She was in her '80's and had used the word her whole life in it's proper usage.

Yes, racism exists, but, come on, let's use our heads and not have a knee-jerk reaction to something like these lyrics.

flimflam, as one who's done a lot of work around race, rhetoric, culture, semantics, and--on this board alone--written virtual treatises about race, I completely disagree with you.

You've apparently listened closely to the lyrics, so it's surprising you don't seem to have reflected on what the song is about, its meaning, overall tone, or Mick's intent.

Quote
flilflam
Also, maybe more black fans would attend Stones concerts if there were not so many studio songs that imply that blacks are inferior to whites.

Something about your own tone makes me wonder think maybe you're just being obnoxious and provocative. I don't really care, and I'm not going to post more on this, but there's something disingenuous and dare I say "trollish" (i.e., troll meaning "someone who posts inflammatory messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum with intent to provoke" ) about your post. The above statement is an example of what I mean.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 06:19 by swiss.

>Lol no Glam, I had the OP in mind as having too much time to get all offended at a word in a song.

Roger Wilco, thanks for clearing that up.

I wonder if the OP knows Mick wouldn't even sing the "black girls" line in concert during SG?

This thread reminds me of something I hadn't thought of in years: way back when I was a wee lad I had written to Patti Smith and in response, I received a button that said "RNR NIGGER". Needless to say I never wore it.

Quote
flilflam
Why don't you tell me what the point of the song is? It does not matter. The N word, in whatever context, is insulting to most blacks and is especially disturbing to this white man who was living in Memphis when King was shot and killed. The N word is utterly offensive, in whatever context, in my opinion.

Oh my god, one little "N" word in a lyric written 38 years ago needs to be removed from that song on the upcoming reissue of the album. Isn't this what the former communist countries tried to do to artists at that time.

Don't write anything critical or bad because then we will shoot you!

Good enough the world have changed and the respect for coloured people have risen through the decades. In the song the word is used, not to disgrace or disrespect any race!

Keep it on the record, don't alter anything else but add the new tracks!

Been Stoned since 1964 and still am!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-03-24 08:07 by Fan Since 1964.

I think you have all fallen for an obvious wind up.

I'm offended by the "lazy slob" in Hangfire .

sc uk