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Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: mickschix ()
Date: February 9, 2010 00:52

Kleermaker, I happen to think that rock 'n roll is loaded with creative artists, many that I would consider genius....three of the Beatles,( yup, just 3) Dylan, Mick & Keith, Pete Townsend, Joni Mitchell, Hendrix, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Bowie, Ray Davies, Clapton, Paul Simon, Elton John, and I'm sure I could name a few more from my own list but that may be stretching it a bit. Many from my list I consider poets, those who have an extraordinary way with words. Everyone has their own list...let's see a few!

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: kleermaker ()
Date: February 9, 2010 00:54

Quote
Amsterdamned
Quote
kleermaker
"
"btw,Who the devil are you??" quote Amsterdamned

But Amsterdamned, I also don't know who you are! Most of us here don't know each other I guess. Why are you asking that?


Well you gave me the slight impression that you know me..smiling smiley

Well, A., I know nothing of you, except your nickname and your posts here. I even don't know in which country you live, how old you are etc. So don't worrycool smiley

But I'm indeed rather quick in 'knowing' people even when I don't know themwinking smiley.
Some sort of talent. There's a very interesting dialogue of Plato about that phenomenon, with of course Sokrates as the main figure. I've translated that myself from Greek into Dutch. Well, now you know more about me than I about youwinking smiley

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 9, 2010 11:27

Quote
kleermaker
Quote
Amsterdamned
Quote
kleermaker
"
"btw,Who the devil are you??" quote Amsterdamned

But Amsterdamned, I also don't know who you are! Most of us here don't know each other I guess. Why are you asking that?


Well you gave me the slight impression that you know me..smiling smiley

Well, A., I know nothing of you, except your nickname and your posts here. I even don't know in which country you live, how old you are etc. So don't worrycool smiley

But I'm indeed rather quick in 'knowing' people even when I don't know themwinking smiley.
Some sort of talent. There's a very interesting dialogue of Plato about that phenomenon, with of course Sokrates as the main figure. I've translated that myself from Greek into Dutch. Well, now you know more about me than I about youwinking smiley

Well I live in Amsterdam most of the time,I'am 49 years old,and discovered the Stones when I was 5 or 6 years old. I like your personal attitude, don't worry.I prefer the Taylor area ,just like you,and It kind op pleases me that Taylor,despite the fact he was with the Stones for only 5 years,he evokes the most inspiring discussons:about music.smileys with beer

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: kingkirby ()
Date: February 9, 2010 14:24

Quote
mickschix
Kleermaker, I happen to think that rock 'n roll is loaded with creative artists, many that I would consider genius....three of the Beatles,( yup, just 3) Dylan, Mick & Keith, Pete Townsend, Joni Mitchell, Hendrix, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Bowie, Ray Davies, Clapton, Paul Simon, Elton John, and I'm sure I could name a few more from my own list but that may be stretching it a bit. Many from my list I consider poets, those who have an extraordinary way with words. Everyone has their own list...let's see a few!

Mickschix, I like this game and often have this debate with my friends, who are all music lovers but not neccessarily as Rock-influenced as my taste: who will be remembered as the real musical geniuses of this era in a hundred or two hundred years? By that we mean, the ones who changed the course of popular (not pop) music and created new forms of music,as opposed to excelling in existing musical genres. After much argument, we usually come up with the following:

Miles Davis - created whole new style of music and changed the face of Jazz more than any other artist

James Brown - created funk music and half of hip-hop's DNA

Kraftwerk: created modern Electronic music (and everything Dance music related) and the inspiration for the other half of hip-hop's DNA

The Beatles & The Velvet Underground: created the template for the two halves of guitar-based music as we know it now, and still provide the inspiration for the majority of bands today (melodic or dissonant)

This is far as we ever agree - My votes for the Stones, Bob Dylan & David Bowie get shouted down on the grounds that they all perfected existing musical genres (R'n'B, Blues, Folk, Rock'n'Roll etc) rather than creating new ones...

What do you think - grounds for debate?

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: loog droog ()
Date: February 9, 2010 16:39

Quote
kingkirby


Just wondering if you ever heard the song "La Da La" from Ian McLagan's first album Troublemaker, where he references Jack "King" Kirby in the line, "Ive read every Lee & Kirby comic book/But it's fantasy..."

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: bernardanderson ()
Date: February 9, 2010 17:40

frank zappa = genius

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: kingkirby ()
Date: February 9, 2010 18:21

Quote
loog droog
Quote
kingkirby


Just wondering if you ever heard the song "La Da La" from Ian McLagan's first album Troublemaker, where he references Jack "King" Kirby in the line, "Ive read every Lee & Kirby comic book/But it's fantasy..."

hey loog droog, I haven't got that album, but you're spot on for the inspiration behind my name - I'm a very big Kirby fan - now he was a genius!

And funnily enough the Stan Lee / Jack Kirby arguments run pretty much exactly the same as Lennon & McCartney...

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: mtaylor ()
Date: February 9, 2010 19:07

Quote
kingkirby
Quote
mickschix
Kleermaker, I happen to think that rock 'n roll is loaded with creative artists, many that I would consider genius....three of the Beatles,( yup, just 3) Dylan, Mick & Keith, Pete Townsend, Joni Mitchell, Hendrix, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Bowie, Ray Davies, Clapton, Paul Simon, Elton John, and I'm sure I could name a few more from my own list but that may be stretching it a bit. Many from my list I consider poets, those who have an extraordinary way with words. Everyone has their own list...let's see a few!

Mickschix, I like this game and often have this debate with my friends, who are all music lovers but not neccessarily as Rock-influenced as my taste: who will be remembered as the real musical geniuses of this era in a hundred or two hundred years? By that we mean, the ones who changed the course of popular (not pop) music and created new forms of music,as opposed to excelling in existing musical genres. After much argument, we usually come up with the following:

Miles Davis - created whole new style of music and changed the face of Jazz more than any other artist

James Brown - created funk music and half of hip-hop's DNA

Kraftwerk: created modern Electronic music (and everything Dance music related) and the inspiration for the other half of hip-hop's DNA

The Beatles & The Velvet Underground: created the template for the two halves of guitar-based music as we know it now, and still provide the inspiration for the majority of bands today (melodic or dissonant)

This is far as we ever agree - My votes for the Stones, Bob Dylan & David Bowie get shouted down on the grounds that they all perfected existing musical genres (R'n'B, Blues, Folk, Rock'n'Roll etc) rather than creating new ones...

What do you think - grounds for debate?
Who created the blues which a very important factor in music (not Beatles)

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 9, 2010 20:27

Quote
bernardanderson
frank zappa = genius

thumbs up

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: whitem8 ()
Date: February 10, 2010 02:21

Getting back to the entire Yoko debate. Really to get a great insight into her art and the love they had for each other I would highly recommend The US vs. Lennon DVD. What a great and interesting ride about the Nixon administration's efforts to deport Lennon. Tons of great interviews and interesting clips. And if you are at all skeptical about the Love they had for eachother go to the extras and watch Yoko read her letter she sent to the NY parol board for a hearing on "the Subjects" request for parol. Chilling and very emotional. I love how in the entire film they never mention the "subject"s name. They do not want to give him any bit of the fame he sought with his devilish act.
Check it out if you are a fan you will love it. If you are a skeptic, perhaps you will see another side that will interest you.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: loog droog ()
Date: February 10, 2010 06:31

Quote
kingkirby
Quote
loog droog
Quote
kingkirby


Just wondering if you ever heard the song "La Da La" from Ian McLagan's first album Troublemaker, where he references Jack "King" Kirby in the line, "Ive read every Lee & Kirby comic book/But it's fantasy..."

hey loog droog, I haven't got that album, but you're spot on for the inspiration behind my name - I'm a very big Kirby fan - now he was a genius!

And funnily enough the Stan Lee / Jack Kirby arguments run pretty much exactly the same as Lennon & McCartney...


Right you are. Both teams appealed to youth, started in the early 60's and ended in 1970, became wildly popular and then matured artistically as their audience grew older, and later had fans that maintained that one was more important than the other.


It was the Lee-Kirby (and Joe Sinnott! ) reunion for the underwhelming Silver Surfer graphic novel in 1978 that made me rethink the wisdom of the Beatles ever reuniting. Sometimes when you go back, you just can't get it back.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: swiss ()
Date: February 10, 2010 06:32

Where's this one from?


Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: February 10, 2010 06:34

Quote
Amsterdamned
I feel sorry Lennon was shot, please don't misunderstand me..
But as a musician to me he was just one of those many overrated singer songwriters with a hippy message playing three chords you find on every corner of the street. mc Cartney was the musical and harmonic brain behind the the Beatles,
Jagger was 50% of the Stones.

I'am talking about Jagger-Lennon and their impact on the Stones and the Beatles.I cannot see why Keith admired Lennon as a musician.Once more,as a human being:nothing
wrong about John.

Absolute rubbish.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: whitem8 ()
Date: February 10, 2010 07:42

Funny how the same guy who played beautiful finger picking style on Julia, wrote intricate melodies like Day in the Life and Aussiamen (I'm Sorry), and played some utterly howling guitar on all of John Lennon and the Plastic Ono Band, is a three chord wonder with no talent. Strange days indeed!

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: mickschix ()
Date: February 10, 2010 20:43

In answer to your question, Kingkirby, I don't think you have to be the innovator, the groundbreaker, to be considered a genius. I know what you mean though; for example, some may put those who followed the Beatles into the " also ran" category but I don't. I do believe this is all subject to personal taste. I was not a Zappa fan but I can see the arguement for calling him a genius.
Yes, would you call Robert Johnson the creator of the blues and if so would he not be considered a genius too?

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: bernardanderson ()
Date: February 10, 2010 21:09

i wouldn't call Robert Johnson the creator of the blues, because he wasn't.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: kingkirby ()
Date: February 10, 2010 21:10

Hey Mickschix,

Yes you and mtaylor are absolutely right: The Blues need to be represented and Robert Johnson should be the one for that - I don't know if you could call him the creator of the Blues, but like Miles Davis he developed something completely new and set a template that musicians were still copying decades later...

I guess we should also add Little Richard & Chuck Berry (maybe even Ike Turner?) for their part in shaping Rock 'n' Roll...

But you're also right - you don't have to be an innovator to be a genius - all those names you mentioned earlier deserve the title, I was more thinking about those musicians who might be mentioned in two hundred years time if some kid in music class is forced to write a quick paragraph on 'The history of 20th Century music'...

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: MKjan ()
Date: February 10, 2010 22:03

Can't remember the name but wasn't there some guy before RJ, and some of RJ's songs seemed to have borrowed heavily from him...not making a claim here, but maybe someone can add to this, I'd just like to know.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: kleermaker ()
Date: February 10, 2010 23:05

Quote
kingkirby
Hey Mickschix,

Yes you and mtaylor are absolutely right: The Blues need to be represented and Robert Johnson should be the one for that - I don't know if you could call him the creator of the Blues, but like Miles Davis he developed something completely new and set a template that musicians were still copying decades later...

I guess we should also add Little Richard & Chuck Berry (maybe even Ike Turner?) for their part in shaping Rock 'n' Roll...

But you're also right - you don't have to be an innovator to be a genius - all those names you mentioned earlier deserve the title, I was more thinking about those musicians who might be mentioned in two hundred years time if some kid in music class is forced to write a quick paragraph on 'The history of 20th Century music'...

I don't mind, but this whole discussion about 'genius' already took place here:

[www.iorr.org]

But you can quietly carry on, of course.

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: bernardanderson ()
Date: February 10, 2010 23:52

Quote
MKjan
Can't remember the name but wasn't there some guy before RJ, and some of RJ's songs seemed to have borrowed heavily from him...not making a claim here, but maybe someone can add to this, I'd just like to know.
perhaps you're thinking of Son House?

Re: JAGGER-LENNON relationship
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: February 10, 2010 23:56

Robert Johnson drew on a lot of his contemporaries and predecessors - if you're interested,
try Elijah Wald's fine book Escaping the Delta and the Back to the Crossroads CD he compiled to go with it
... and now back to our regularly scheduled Jagger/Lennon thread

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