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michel

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Mathijs
Taylor was a fantastic lead guitarist and a pretty bad rhythm player, Wood was a good lead guitarist and a great rythm player. Taylor is not a composer, Wood wrote some great tracks, including the best post-Exile Stones album of the '70's with I've Got My Own Album to Do. With Wood the Stones became a much better band, with Charlie peaking in '75 and Bill in '81. With Taylor the Stones would not have survived the punk explosion. Taylor can't sing, Wood was a great singer. Taylor has become a fat drunk and Wood still looks like a true R&R outlaw.

When the Stones picked Taylor they could have pickid from a list of Great Blues Lead Guitarists. And all these guitarists would have played some great solo's on Sway and CYHMK, Exile would have been Exile, and the '72 tour would have been no different at all.
With Wood, they only could pick him as he is a true Rolling Stone. And that's what makes him special.

Mathijs

I totally agree with you, great post!!!!!!

I don't. I'm still not sure what a "true Rolling Stone" means. And Sway would have been the same without Taylor? In what parallel universe?

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71Tele

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michel

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Mathijs
Taylor was a fantastic lead guitarist and a pretty bad rhythm player, Wood was a good lead guitarist and a great rythm player. Taylor is not a composer, Wood wrote some great tracks, including the best post-Exile Stones album of the '70's with I've Got My Own Album to Do. With Wood the Stones became a much better band, with Charlie peaking in '75 and Bill in '81. With Taylor the Stones would not have survived the punk explosion. Taylor can't sing, Wood was a great singer. Taylor has become a fat drunk and Wood still looks like a true R&R outlaw.

When the Stones picked Taylor they could have pickid from a list of Great Blues Lead Guitarists. And all these guitarists would have played some great solo's on Sway and CYHMK, Exile would have been Exile, and the '72 tour would have been no different at all.
With Wood, they only could pick him as he is a true Rolling Stone. And that's what makes him special.

Mathijs

I totally agree with you, great post!!!!!!

I don't. I'm still not sure what a "true Rolling Stone" means. And Sway would have been the same without Taylor? In what parallel universe?

Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo.
And a true rolling stone is Mick Keith Brian Charlie Bill Ron, its in the personality and in the hart, Mick Taylors mind was somwhere else(Jack bruce, jazzy fiddling) Thats what its all about in the rolling stones, Its a way of living

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michel

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71Tele

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michel

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Mathijs
Taylor was a fantastic lead guitarist and a pretty bad rhythm player, Wood was a good lead guitarist and a great rythm player. Taylor is not a composer, Wood wrote some great tracks, including the best post-Exile Stones album of the '70's with I've Got My Own Album to Do. With Wood the Stones became a much better band, with Charlie peaking in '75 and Bill in '81. With Taylor the Stones would not have survived the punk explosion. Taylor can't sing, Wood was a great singer. Taylor has become a fat drunk and Wood still looks like a true R&R outlaw.

When the Stones picked Taylor they could have pickid from a list of Great Blues Lead Guitarists. And all these guitarists would have played some great solo's on Sway and CYHMK, Exile would have been Exile, and the '72 tour would have been no different at all.
With Wood, they only could pick him as he is a true Rolling Stone. And that's what makes him special.

Mathijs

I totally agree with you, great post!!!!!!

I don't. I'm still not sure what a "true Rolling Stone" means. And Sway would have been the same without Taylor? In what parallel universe?

Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo.
And a true rolling stone is Mick Keith Brian Charlie Bill Ron, its in the personality and in the hart, Mick Taylors mind was somwhere else(Jack bruce, jazzy fiddling) Thats what its all about in the rolling stones, Its a way of living

I think that's a load of rot. Now ask yourself if Sway would have been as great with Ron Wood as with Taylor? Be honest. Oh yeah, we don't have to speculate beacuse we have the recordings and videos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-26 23:54 by 71Tele.

But would Respectable, Whip comes down, miss you been any good with Taylor? Go on be honest!

Mick Taylor has a very delicate touch when he needs to. He's in a very different class to Ronnie as a guitar player, and he can when required keep a little more restrained. Respectable, When The Whip Comes Down etc. really doesn't require the guitar ingenuity of track like Sway, Time Waits For No-one etc.and i've no doubt that Mick is very capable of playing them. Just check out the Chuck Berry covers on the Taylor era tours, he's not dominating them with unnecessary guitar solos etc.

Ronnie and Keith can both be good players - if they really played instead of being characters posing as rock stars.

Though Ronnie fits more with the bad boy party image of the Stones, which is fun...Taylor fit with the greatest rock n roll band in the world image of the Stones .

I prefer them as the world's greatest rock n roll band instead of drunk clowning with an occasional glimmer of good playing.

Blimey, blinkered or what!

I'm sure MT could write the bible Volume 2 if he tried!

"Respectable, When The Whip Comes Down etc. really doesn't require the guitar ingenuity"

Look at the groove maybe, rock n roll don't revolve around endless guitar solo's....

"Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo." quote michel.

Someone who makes such a statement has nothing understood of Taylor's guitar playing. Because nor Perkins nor Mandel nor Clapton has that melancholic touch that you only can hear if you are open to feelings and emotions. Taylor did it with the Stones even in his soloing in songs like Brown sugar. He added a melancholic streak to all songs that was essential for their 'darkness', which made them the greatest band (without the adjective rock 'n roll). He had such a broad range of emotions that he could play 'aggressive' and melancholic soli at the same time, for instance in Sympathy for the devil on Ya Ya's, which is a powerful and sad solo at the same time. People who think that if one can play fluidly, technically skilfully and fast one is automatically a good (lead) gitarist don't know nothing about musicality and the ability of expressing all kinds of emotions that is implicite in true musicianship. If you think that skilful lead guitarists are 'convertible' you make a great mistake.

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-27 02:09 by kleermaker.

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kleermaker
"Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo." end of quote.

Someone who makes such a statement has nothing understood of Taylor's guitar playing. Because nor Perkins nor Mandel nor Clapton has that melancholic touch that you only can hear if you are open to feelings that emotions. Taylor did it with the Stones even in his soloing in songs like Brown sugar. He added a melancholic streak to all songs that was essential for their 'darkness', which made them the greatest band (without the adjective rock 'n roll). He had such a broad range of emotions that he could play 'aggressive' and melancholic soli at the same time, for instance in Sympathy for the devil on Ya Ya's, which is a powerful and sad solo at the same time. People who think that if one can play fluidly, technically skilfully and fast one is automatically a good (lead) gitarist don't know nothing about musicality and the ability of expressing all kinds of emotions that is implicite in true musicianship. If you think that skilful lead guitarists are 'convertible' you make a great mistake.

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.

Here we encounter a fundamental problem Kleermaker, Which is that we all have different fingerprints, we are all different people and get moved by different things. As if we are radiosets tuned to different frequencies, I personally get very moved again and again at the way the solo at Just My Imagination finishes and gets back into the interplay with the rhythm. And for me Some Girls is a million times more stirring my soul than any of the 69-76 records can do. And this is a fundamental human problem where we think, because we feel something from something, we know better than somebody else, neigh we even know WHAT IS better for some one else. It seems a small thing but it is the root of many miseery throughout human history.

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kleermaker

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.

What?

When the shit hits the fan
Sittin on da can

When the Whip Comes Down
When the Whip Comes Down

Uncensored. That's all you need to know about that.

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ablett
But would Respectable, Whip comes down, miss you been any good with Taylor? Go on be honest!

Honestly, they wouldn't have happened with Taylor. Those are fun tunes. As I always say, Ronnie was a breath of fresh air on that one album. After Some Girls? Not so much.

Ronnie's playing was probably the highlight of the Shine A Light movie for me.

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behroez

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kleermaker
"Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo." end of quote.

Someone who makes such a statement has nothing understood of Taylor's guitar playing. Because nor Perkins nor Mandel nor Clapton has that melancholic touch that you only can hear if you are open to feelings that emotions. Taylor did it with the Stones even in his soloing in songs like Brown sugar. He added a melancholic streak to all songs that was essential for their 'darkness', which made them the greatest band (without the adjective rock 'n roll). He had such a broad range of emotions that he could play 'aggressive' and melancholic soli at the same time, for instance in Sympathy for the devil on Ya Ya's, which is a powerful and sad solo at the same time. People who think that if one can play fluidly, technically skilfully and fast one is automatically a good (lead) gitarist don't know nothing about musicality and the ability of expressing all kinds of emotions that is implicite in true musicianship. If you think that skilful lead guitarists are 'convertible' you make a great mistake.

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.

Here we encounter a fundamental problem Kleermaker, Which is that we all have different fingerprints, we are all different people and get moved by different things. As if we are radiosets tuned to different frequencies, I personally get very moved again and again at the way the solo at Just My Imagination finishes and gets back into the interplay with the rhythm. And for me Some Girls is a million times more stirring my soul than any of the 69-76 records can do. And this is a fundamental human problem where we think, because we feel something from something, we know better than somebody else, neigh we even know WHAT IS better for some one else. It seems a small thing but it is the root of many miseery throughout human history.

I guess your comment concerns my last sentence about those 3 songs. Well, if they move your soul I have no problem with that. You haven't and won't hear me say that I know what is better for you. So that last remark about the root of many misery etc. has nothing to do with me nor with my argument up here about the fact that you can't throw all lead guitar playing or lead guitar players on one pile.

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Ferret
Ronnie's playing was probably the highlight of the Shine A Light movie for me.

My highlights from the movie were being there in the first place. It wasn't musically great, but it was lots of fun. But I only watch the special features on the DVD. I think they're better than most of the actual show.

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kleermaker
"Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo." quote michel.

Someone who makes such a statement has nothing understood of Taylor's guitar playing. Because nor Perkins nor Mandel nor Clapton has that melancholic touch that you only can hear if you are open to feelings and emotions. Taylor did it with the Stones even in his soloing in songs like Brown sugar. He added a melancholic streak to all songs that was essential for their 'darkness', which made them the greatest band (without the adjective rock 'n roll). He had such a broad range of emotions that he could play 'aggressive' and melancholic soli at the same time, for instance in Sympathy for the devil on Ya Ya's, which is a powerful and sad solo at the same time. People who think that if one can play fluidly, technically skilfully and fast one is automatically a good (lead) gitarist don't know nothing about musicality and the ability of expressing all kinds of emotions that is implicite in true musicianship. If you think that skilful lead guitarists are 'convertible' you make a great mistake.

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.

So let's make a comparison that will probably seem absurd to you: the solos on Brown Sugar in Brussels 73 vs Start me Up on Flashpoint. I like what you say about Taylor's melancholy touch, for me his melodic line on BS sounds too much like it was rehearsed beforehand, like it was set in stone when all the rest of the band is in free motion. On the other hand, Ronnie's solo has an offhanded nature, melodic but as if thought on the spot, which sends out a completely different vibe to me. La Bohème... Talent and vivacity, a way of being in the moment. I love how it suddenly falls back to the main riff before moving away from it; no intention to make a statement there, but just to participate in a conversation. This way of playing also has its melancholy aspect - the celebration of the instant as opposed to... what?

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71Tele

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Mathijs
Taylor was a fantastic lead guitarist and a pretty bad rhythm player, Wood was a good lead guitarist and a great rythm player. Taylor is not a composer, Wood wrote some great tracks, including the best post-Exile Stones album of the '70's with I've Got My Own Album to Do. With Wood the Stones became a much better band, with Charlie peaking in '75 and Bill in '81. With Taylor the Stones would not have survived the punk explosion. Taylor can't sing, Wood was a great singer. Taylor has become a fat drunk and Wood still looks like a true R&R outlaw.

When the Stones picked Taylor they could have pickid from a list of Great Blues Lead Guitarists. And all these guitarists would have played some great solo's on Sway and CYHMK, Exile would have been Exile, and the '72 tour would have been no different at all.
With Wood, they only could pick him as he is a true Rolling Stone. And that's what makes him special.

Mathijs

I don't. I'm still not sure what a "true Rolling Stone" means. And Sway would have been the same without Taylor? In what parallel universe?

Damn, Mathijs, this really does not sound like you. First, to call Mick Taylor a "a pretty bad rhythm player" is a gross exaggeration. Also to dismiss Taylor as a fat drunk who can't sing is to show a great disrespect to a great player who contributed much to the Stones during his tenure. You're entitled to your view but man this is most caustic post you have ever written about a player whom I thought you admired and respected.

<< Damn, Mathijs, this really does not sound like you. First, to call Mick Taylor a "a pretty bad rhythm player" is a gross exaggeration. Also to dismiss Taylor as a fat drunk who can't sing is to show a great disrespect to a great player who contributed much to the Stones during his tenure. You're entitled to your view but man this is most caustic post you have ever written about a player whom I thought you admired and respected. >>

Apparently, Mathjis prefers skinny drunks who can't play rhythm or sing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-27 06:09 by 71Tele.

Whoa Mathis and Chris M...let's not veer off to talk about their singing. Both are horrible.

The Palladia Channel (formerly MTV-HD) just broadcast a concert called 'The Strat Pack' featuring several different Stratocaster players live in one concert that was filmed at Wembley Arena in 2004. What I found hilarious was that while you had all sorts of guitarists and styles playing their Strats, great solos, power chords, from blues to David Gilmour playing Floyd...Ronnie came out for his turn, and strummed and acoustic and 'tried' to sing Ooh La La. His singing was horrible, he barely played guitar (kind of like a Stones live show...more posing than playing). It was very obvious he is not good enough to be on stage (singing or playing) with any of the people performing on that show. Here were some of the performers and their house band:
Joe Walsh: Guitar, vocals
David Gilmour: Guitar, vocals
Brian May: Guitar, vocals
Paul Rodgers: Guitar, vocals
Ronnie Wood: Guitar, vocals
Albert Lee: Guitar, vocals
Gary Moore: Guitar, vocals
Mike Rutherford: Guitar, vocals
Phil Manzanera: Guitar, vocals
Support band
Phil Palmer: Guitar, backing vocals
Pino Palladino: Bass guitar, backing vocals
Paul "Wix" Wickens: Keyboards
Ian Thomas: Drums & percussion

I am sure Ronnie is a great party, fun guy to be around, and not a threat to push Keith. Kind of like the co-worker a couple of desks away from you that will never be good enough to push you in your job, you will always outshine him, plus he's fun to have around and go for drinks with. But he is not in the same league as Taylor when playing guitar (in singing, it's a nil-nil draw)

You guitar-fetishists keep going on and on, but fail to realize that the Stones were never a solo-oriented band. You fail to get it, as they briefly hired a solo guy, which in retrospect, might have been a mistake. Hell, they might have done better to hire a keyboardist after Brian died.

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bassplayer617
You guitar-fetishists keep going on and on, but fail to realize that the Stones were never a solo-oriented band. You fail to get it, as they briefly hired a solo guy, which in retrospect, might have been a mistake. Hell, they might have done better to hire a keyboardist after Brian died.

An astounding statement. Have you listened to the records between 1969-1974? Speaking for myself, preferring Taylor has absolutely nothing to do with guitar fetishism (I actually dislike most solo guitar heroes like Beck, Hendrix, et al). Rather it has to do with how the two guitars meshed in the band and the quality of playing onstage and in the studio. It's a matter of musicianship, not guitar fetishism. Maybe you are the one who fails to get it?

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Ferret
Ronnie's playing was probably the highlight of the Shine A Light movie for me.

If only because Keef was so bloody awful throughout it! Ronnie at least achieved mediocrity, while watching Keef in SaL is just sad.

The important questions now are which guitars Ron & Keith will pull out of the closet to play a new tour? Keith had that Les Paul Jr for Midnight Rambler Saitama 2006. I loved that sound. The old crunch was there. I will say this -- Keith and Ronnie's guitar collections get played, and I think it's great that they do this. Stones purists might bitch about it, but those guitars were taken on the road to be played, not displayed as artifacts.

I think bp is trying to change the subject slightly...

I can't believe this thread is still going!! Worried About You isn't that a Mick Taylor solo with some production on it to make it sound like its not him? I believe that is one of the leftovers but I could be wrong.

The fact is that Ronnie has remained active and has displayed that HE is ready for a new Stones tour. The question how lies with the other three. I love the irony implicit in this scenario.

Sweet jesus its like the ol' days with OpenG and MLC all over again....

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ablett
Sweet jesus its like the ol' days with OpenG and MLC all over again....

Maybe they're back with new nicknames

Thats my thoughts!

I love statements like...


"But would Respectable, Whip comes down, miss you been any good with Taylor? Honestly, they wouldn't have happened with Taylor."

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Thats the whole point I was making....

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otonneau

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kleermaker
"Just listen to for example the solo on hand of fate, or worried about you, great solos and those are not Mick taylor, so if another great solo player like that(wayne perkings, Harvey Mandel, Clapton,go on and on) would have played on sway it would have been just as great, maybe a little diffrent but just as great, there are so many great solo gitar players that could have been doin that solo." quote michel.

Someone who makes such a statement has nothing understood of Taylor's guitar playing. Because nor Perkins nor Mandel nor Clapton has that melancholic touch that you only can hear if you are open to feelings and emotions. Taylor did it with the Stones even in his soloing in songs like Brown sugar. He added a melancholic streak to all songs that was essential for their 'darkness', which made them the greatest band (without the adjective rock 'n roll). He had such a broad range of emotions that he could play 'aggressive' and melancholic soli at the same time, for instance in Sympathy for the devil on Ya Ya's, which is a powerful and sad solo at the same time. People who think that if one can play fluidly, technically skilfully and fast one is automatically a good (lead) gitarist don't know nothing about musicality and the ability of expressing all kinds of emotions that is implicite in true musicianship. If you think that skilful lead guitarists are 'convertible' you make a great mistake.

As for songs like Respectable, Miss you and When the wip comes down, well .. second class at best.

So let's make a comparison that will probably seem absurd to you: the solos on Brown Sugar in Brussels 73 vs Start me Up on Flashpoint. I like what you say about Taylor's melancholy touch, for me his melodic line on BS sounds too much like it was rehearsed beforehand, like it was set in stone when all the rest of the band is in free motion. On the other hand, Ronnie's solo has an offhanded nature, melodic but as if thought on the spot, which sends out a completely different vibe to me. La Bohème... Talent and vivacity, a way of being in the moment. I love how it suddenly falls back to the main riff before moving away from it; no intention to make a statement there, but just to participate in a conversation. This way of playing also has its melancholy aspect - the celebration of the instant as opposed to... what?

It's just the other way around: the others had to follow Taylor. Did you hear more than one solo of MT on BS? I guess you did. Then you can hear, just like me, how he varied in an incredible way. Not only on BS but all his soli were each time different ones. Very good of the rest they could follow. In fact the trio Jagger, Taylor, Richards played very well together, effectively supported by Charlie and Bill. The main reason they were a tight playing, melodic as well as rhythmic band. Don't forget how great the rhythm of Taylor's soli was: fitted in perfectly. A great balance of rhythm and melody. We've simply never heard that after Taylor. That's the main reason the Taylor issue won't dissapear in talking about the Stones. Why hide away their best achievements? Only to save the present, which is a very uncertain present, maybe even already the very end of the long story of the Stones?

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otonneau
This way of playing also has its melancholy aspect - the celebration of the instant as opposed to... what?

the revelation of the essence of life, or at least a part of it.