Yeah I agree with you as a louder amp would be much more suited to stage work. I used to play a Hotrod Deville 2x12 (way to loud). Aren't the Twins Keiths currently using on stage only about 18 watts. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

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skipstone
Alright there 71Tele. It's amazing you are offended by being called "dude". And I see you can't handle friendly online exasperation.

"4. If you have some evidence to support the claim that it was a Champ please enlighten us."

Evidence - KEITH RICHARDS from MANY guitar magazine interviews. He has talked highly of the Fender Champ more so than any other amp in the history of the Stones' recording sessions. He's made it clear he's used a Champ A LOT. Fact? FFuck if I know. But it's logical that it was a Champ. Your, er, language to suggest that it wasn't or couldn't be is just ridiculous. You sound as if you know for a fact that recording live in a studio means no headphones and that volume is more important or however it is you are thinking of it.

No, no. I DO NOT know for sure. I know he liked Champs. I have had Champs myself. My theory is soley based on the band playing live in the studio, and my belief that a Champ in that particular situation would be unlikely. I also think there's some other processing on it. BUT: I repeat: I do NOT know for sure...You just seemed rather condescending that's all. No need.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-15 02:31 by 71Tele.

I'd love a Champ.... which champ I don't know....not the modern ones. Probably a 50's tweed. I'd also like a black face Princeton. The kind Jim Campilongo plays. Perhaps I should just stick with my 65 Deluxe reverb reissue and be happy with that.

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

Quote
NickB
I'd love a Champ.... which champ I don't know....not the modern ones. Probably a 50's tweed. I'd also like a black face Princeton. The kind Jim Campilongo plays. Perhaps I should just stick with my 65 Deluxe reverb reissue and be happy with that.

What sounds as good or better than a Champ is one of those old Gibson 1950s lap steel amps, like a BR-9. Turn the gain up to about 80% and it's the nastiest tube distortion you have ever heard. I use it all the time. These could be had fairly cheap until recently, as Gibson amps did not have the collector mystique of the Fenders of the same period. But they sound just as good.

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71Tele

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NickB
I'd love a Champ.... which champ I don't know....not the modern ones. Probably a 50's tweed. I'd also like a black face Princeton. The kind Jim Campilongo plays. Perhaps I should just stick with my 65 Deluxe reverb reissue and be happy with that.

What sounds as good or better than a Champ is one of those old Gibson 1950s lap steel amps, like a BR-9. Turn the gain up to about 80% and it's the nastiest tube distortion you have ever heard. I use it all the time. These could be had fairly cheap until recently, as Gibson amps did not have the collector mystique of the Fenders of the same period. But they sound just as good.

Interesting as those Gibson amps I've heard weren't as well built or as well designed as the Fender amps. It's become apparent to me that anything that is remotely old is acheiving top dollar! Even Silver face fenders!!!

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

<< Interesting as those Gibson amps I've heard weren't as well built or as well designed as the Fender amps. It's become apparent to me that anything that is remotely old is acheiving top dollar! Even Silver face fenders!!! >>

Yep, anything "vintage" is outrageous now. I remember several years ago you could get a Vox Wyman bass for $300 US. Now they're like $1500.

i have a tweed late 50´s champ and i´d be very surprised if the sound on cyhmk really came from a champ.

i had a 50´s gibson amp once, forgot the model number, i got rid of it fast because
i did´t like it´s sound.

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71Tele

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skipstone
Alright there 71Tele. It's amazing you are offended by being called "dude". And I see you can't handle friendly online exasperation.

"4. If you have some evidence to support the claim that it was a Champ please enlighten us."

Evidence - KEITH RICHARDS from MANY guitar magazine interviews. He has talked highly of the Fender Champ more so than any other amp in the history of the Stones' recording sessions. He's made it clear he's used a Champ A LOT. Fact? FFuck if I know. But it's logical that it was a Champ. Your, er, language to suggest that it wasn't or couldn't be is just ridiculous. You sound as if you know for a fact that recording live in a studio means no headphones and that volume is more important or however it is you are thinking of it.

No, no. I DO NOT know for sure. I know he liked Champs. I have had Champs myself. My theory is soley based on the band playing live in the studio, and my belief that a Champ in that particular situation would be unlikely. I also think there's some other processing on it. BUT: I repeat: I do NOT know for sure...You just seemed rather condescending that's all. No need.

I agree with Tele here. I've had Champs and played through them, and they do have
a distinctive tone. But it's not CYHMN. Keith's talked a lot about them over the last few years, but I don't hear them on any Stones' records.
In fact, I don't think he mentioned a Champ until mid 90s.
And there are no pictures of him in the studio in the 70s with any Champ...
that I know of. IF someone has one, let's see it.
On Knocking? Possible? Yes. Probable? No.

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liddas
Here's the story of the Ampeg guitars






C

One reason Keith had a love affair with the MusicMan Silhouette
is that it has a similar neck to the Dan Armstrong.

I think we can all agree the CYHMK tone is not via a Marshall amp.

I had a Vox Supreme and it got very close, too hard to say for sure what amp it actually was though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-15 11:25 by His Majesty.

Do the modern DA's have any extra pick ups as mentioned in the article posted by Liddas?

Go Dawgs!

Correction: more than the two that come w the guitar now?

CYHMK could be very well be a Gibson guitar through a Dallas Fuzz Face with plenty of boost.

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Loudei
CYHMK could be very well be a Gibson guitar through a Dallas Fuzz Face with plenty of boost.

I was thinking Fuzz Face myself, as that's how I have gotten very close to that tone.

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Loudei
CYHMK could be very well be a Gibson guitar through a Dallas Fuzz Face with plenty of boost.

From personal experience I doubt that. The fuzz face is hard to get this tight-sounding for rhythm guitar

I reckon it's an Ampeg combo cranked all the way with a humbucker

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

Quote
NickB
I reckon it's an Ampeg combo cranked all the way with a humbucker

Likely

Its a Gibson guitar with the neck pick up fuzzed up.

Lots of theories. Maybe some day the man himself will tell us. But the tone on that track is unique among Stones records.

i doubt it is a fuzz face. i think it is a guitar, cranked amp, mic combination.

Watch this video at around 1:33 and it may give you a clue as to the amp/ guitar set up.


Ampeg j-20 workout

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

The guy in the video gets a nice tone overall, but it's too generic to be a good example of the actual CYHMK tone Keith gets. On the other hand, I don't think Keith's setup on that song was really special.

Several years ago, I recorded an approximation of Keith's guitar part using a '72 Telecaster Custom reissue with the neck humbucker selected, through a cranked Ampeg VT-40.
This amp is 60 watts and very loud, but it gets very distorted on high volumes (mine is modified to use EL34 tubes so it gets a little more Marshall sounding). My guess is that Keith just cranked an Ampeg or Fender amp in the studio on that song.

Here is my recordig for anyone to hear:


It's a little boxy sounding but IMHO not too far away from the original.

Lots of amps get close to that sound, doesn't mean they were used on the actual recording.

Lennon got that incredible overdriven guitar sound on Revolution by running his guitar straight into the desk apparently. Anything is possible I guess.

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terraplane
Lennon got that incredible overdriven guitar sound on Revolution by running his guitar straight into the desk apparently. Anything is possible I guess.

Yes, they overdrove the desk VU meters. EMI personnel were shocked.

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LieB
The guy in the video gets a nice tone overall, but it's too generic to be a good example of the actual CYHMK tone Keith gets. On the other hand, I don't think Keith's setup on that song was really special.

Several years ago, I recorded an approximation of Keith's guitar part using a '72 Telecaster Custom reissue with the neck humbucker selected, through a cranked Ampeg VT-40.
This amp is 60 watts and very loud, but it gets very distorted on high volumes (mine is modified to use EL34 tubes so it gets a little more Marshall sounding). My guess is that Keith just cranked an Ampeg or Fender amp in the studio on that song.

Here is my recordig for anyone to hear:


It's a little boxy sounding but IMHO not too far away from the original.

Sounds good but Keith has a slightly smoother sound...Try rolling off the tone to about 2 to 4 to take off the top end fizz. Sounds like you have the tone control wide open. Still nice playing though. Mellow and behind the beat.

Maybe he used something like a blackface deluxe reverb or a blackface princeton? Again low wattage amps that can be cranked.

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

Monkey Man has to be the best!

Concerning Champs: Keith has mentioned that he likes to run two amps when recording and he mentiones a Champ. Problem is that I have never ever seen a picture of a Champ with the Stones. Not in the studio, not as tune-up amp in dressing rooms. And, I have never ever heard the sound of a Champ on a Stones record, with a possible exception for Luxury.

Concerning the sound of CYHMK -certain amps can be illiminated. The sound is that of an amp with overdriven powertubes breaking up the speaker. This illiminates all the big amps they used at that time -Ampeg SVT, HiWatt DR103, Fender Silverface Twin. To get these amps loud enough to have power tube and speaker overdrive would mean certain death for the drummer.

Of course everything is possible, but the sound is not American -not the twangy break up of a Fender, not the dark, warm breakup of an Ampeg. It sounds very British to me, very much EL34 or EL84 tube breakup. VOX AC-10/15, WEM/Watkins Dominator etc are the kind of amps to get this kind of power tube overdrive AND are known for this typical overdriven speaker sound. Vox Supreme etc. also can get this sound and is certainly a possibility.

In my humble opinion, the guitar sound is trademark Ampeg Dan Armstrong. It's this heavy midrange, brittle, spitting sound so typical of the ceramic pickup of the DA. With my DA and Boogie MKI I can get the sound for 98% right, with my RE59 LP and a Vox AC-10 I used to have I got the sound 98% right. I sold the VOX, but I bet that the DA through the Vox would have gotten the sound 100% right.

Mathijs
ps the clip of the Ampeg J20 is misleading, as this amp did not exist in '69, and actually is not a 'true' Ampeg. This is a modern Ampeg that emulates a Fender sound, not the vintage Ampeg sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-17 18:06 by Mathijs.

S we're agreed then...It's an amp and a guitar. Christ 3 pages of rambling to get to that conclusion. ><

I still think it's an Ampeg combo that he's using but hey what do I know.

Going back to the Ampeg J-20. I almost bought it but I got the 65 Deluxe reverb reissue instead. The reason...no reverb on the Ampeg. What I liked about the Ampeg was that it's point to point wired. Not that it would make a huge difference.

NickB

You can't always get what you want.....

www.myspace.com/thesonkings

I didn't know what I was starting here, but I have enjoyed the debate!

Mathjis, was KR using the Dan Armstrong yet when CYHMK was recorded?