Couldn´t find the threads,but sure it has been analysed here.

Thinking of 2012 and the often mentioned celebrating "50 years of The Rolling Stones" I ´m not sure what could be considered as their real start.

Being aware one probably cannot fix it to a certain date,there might be several options :

-July 1962 when the Marquee gig happened (without Bill and Charlie) ?
-January 12th 1963 playing their first ever gig in Ealing with Bill and Charlie ?
-The release date of "Come On" (June 7th 1963 )
-earlier sessions,rehearsals,whatever...

Any opinions on that ?

the consensus seems to be July 1962 - the first gig where they were billed as the Rollin' Stones.
the band also apparently regards that as the start, and i don't see any cause to second-guess 'em

First gig at The Marquee:

And what Charlie was upto that night:



"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

I've always been curious why they were billed as "Mick Jagger & The Rolling Stones," especially since it is assumed that Brian considered himself the "leader" of the band.

ALO had not come on the scene at this point, correct?

From what I've read about Brian, he seemed rather arrogant, IMO, about his role as "leader" and, later on, resentful that Mick was getting so much attention from the audiences.
So why was Mick's name put up front on the Stones' billing?

May be because Brian happened on stage that night under the pseudonym Elmo Lewis ?



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Wasn't it almost customary to bill a band as Lead singer's name & ...? Even if the singer might not be the leader?
I wonder how soon it was that deep down Mick knew he was the real leader.

Quote
Edith Grove
I've always been curious why they were billed as "Mick Jagger & The Rolling Stones," especially since it is assumed that Brian considered himself the "leader" of the band.

?

Seemingly Mick Jagger was the most well-known member of the band by the time - he was (still) one of the singers of Korner's band, so they probably used his name for advertisement reasons (or, as Palace Revolution2000 guessed, his name was picked up because it was to custom to have a band leader or a singer name mentioned at the time - see those other jazz groups names). And as far as I know the gig was booked by Mick or offered as a compensation to him because he was not invited to the BBC show (and as far as I know Mick didn't do any gigs with Blues Incorporated ever since?). So Mick brought the group with whom he had been rehearsing with to bill the night when the regular act (Blues INcorporated) was off.

(Once I remember some die-hard Brian Jones fan denying this explanation. I was told that Mick's name was mentioned because he was just a random singer, not a real band member, because he didn't play any instrument as proper band members do.)

Funny is that afterwards they were advertised as "Mick Jagger, Brian Jones and The Rollin' Stones"... I think there was an ego war already going on in the premises of the band from the day one. (Seemingly, Brian needed to fight hard because Mick as a singer got so easily the central attention.)

But as far as the original question goes, I think this gig is the point where to start the counting. Not just that they were first time playing under the name of The Rolling Stones, but that perhaps that VERY GIG was the moment when a bunch of few guys rehearsing together turned out to be a real band. I think they were more like a 'serious' unit - a real band - after that. I think The Rolling Stones is basically a group of performers: the band lives through playing for people, and not by rehearsals.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-10 15:42 by Doxa.

Maybe the original question isn't even detailed enough. Are we asking "when do WE start counting?", or "when did IT happen?" In other words "when did the Stones themselves know that they were the Stones?"
Two different things. The second we can not answer. Because I myself have been in those shoes; where it can happen at an early rehearsal, or it can not happen until the 3rd show, where the band members all look at each other and 'know' simultaneously.

More here:
[www.iorr.org]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Maybe the original question isn't even detailed enough. Are we asking "when do WE start counting?", or "when did IT happen?" In other words "when did the Stones themselves know that they were the Stones?"
Two different things. The second we can not answer. Because I myself have been in those shoes; where it can happen at an early rehearsal, or it can not happen until the 3rd show, where the band members all look at each other and 'know' simultaneously.

True. I recall Jagger himself being unawere of the answer. He gave some alternatives, among others the Marquee gig; when Charlie joined in; to be first seen in television, etc. I don't think there is 'right' answer properly. The Stones emerged from the Little Boy Blue & The Blues Boys rehearsals; Brian's add in Jazz News (or where it was) resulting in having Stu around; Brian, Mick and Keith meeting each other; rehearsing; Brian picking up the name; playing the first concert; rehearsing more; gigging more; people coming and going; having Bill, and finally Charlie onboard, ALO & Eric Easton coming in, signing the record contract, Mick and Keith starting writing together... Aah., it is a quite long process from 1961 to 1963 all in all... it is a question of convention where to really mark the 'birth'.

- Doxa

Same as with sssoul: July '62.

Yes, there were changes over the next year, but surely that is the begining?

What dare did they use for their 25 anniversary

__________________________




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-10 16:18 by NICOS.

Quote
NICOS
What dare did they use for their 25 anniversary

In 1987? The Glimmers were still bitchin' it out then, were they not?

They started around 9:45 pm

Obviously 1962, otherwise it would not have been Forty in 2002. Charlie joked about that, that he wasn't in the band for forty years in 2002.

Hopefully the next tour will not be a jubilee tour. In that case two of the last three tours would have been jubilee tours.

Yeah,that´s great,thanks for the pics and links,Deltics.

Doxa ()
Date: October 10, 2009 15:56

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Maybe the original question isn't even detailed enough. Are we asking "when do WE start counting?", or "when did IT happen?" In other words "when did the Stones themselves know that they were the Stones?"
Two different things. The second we can not answer. Because I myself have been in those shoes; where it can happen at an early rehearsal, or it can not happen until the 3rd show, where the band members all look at each other and 'know' simultaneously.


True. I recall Jagger himself being unawere of the answer. He gave some alternatives, among others the Marquee gig; when Charlie joined in; to be first seen in television, etc. I don't think there is 'right' answer properly. The Stones emerged from the Little Boy Blue & The Blues Boys rehearsals; Brian's add in Jazz News (or where it was) resulting in having Stu around; Brian, Mick and Keith meeting each other; rehearsing; Brian picking up the name; playing the first concert; rehearsing more; gigging more; people coming and going; having Bill, and finally Charlie onboard, ALO & Eric Easton coming in, signing the record contract, Mick and Keith starting writing together... Aah., it is a quite long process from 1961 to 1963 all in all... it is a question of convention where to really mark the 'birth'.

- Doxa


Palace,you´re right.I wasn´t aware of the different possibilities concerning
our perception and their´s (as a band and/or individually) which isn´t
of course neccessarily the same.

Doxa´s detailed description of various occasions,events,...ranking from ´61-´63
reflects a certain difficulty to nail "the birth" of the Stones,but I agree to July 12th ´62,and some doubts are still left.

Thinking over the whole issue I suppose it´s Keith who´s taking those "historic"
dates more accurate and serious instead Mick...but who am I to know or judge,haha.

I´d love to see Charlie joking about...

October 24, 1936.

Quote
tatters
October 24, 1936.

Bill's birthday ?

November 1962

Oh, that innocent writing of "MANAGEMENT - 102 EDITH GROVE" in the end of the ad makes me feel sooooo sentimental... The story was really in the beginning then...

- Doxa

Quote
Doxa
Oh, that innocent writing of "MANAGEMENT - 102 EDITH GROVE"

That's friggin' hilarious!
Three guys living on mattresses on the floor of a squalid apartment, pissing off the neighbors 24 hours/day.

Brian's letter to Jazz News dated July 2nd.
Note he lists himself as "leader".
Earl Phillips was an American session drummer that Brian included as a joke - Mick Avory is generally supposed to have played the gig, although he denies it: [www.eddybonte.be]
Avory reckons it was Tony Chapman.




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Brian Jones - Guitar Leader

How incredibly arrogant - no wonder the others lost patience with him.

Thanks Deltics!

Hmm.. it looks like that there were already enough cooks...

Well, Mick phoned to Jazz News and said: "Hi, I'm Mick Jagger and my band The Rolling Stones are playing in July 12th at Marquee".

Then Brian wrote a letter (above) to Jazz News claiming he is the "leader" of the Rollin' Stones that is going to play July 12th at Marquee.

The result?

JAZZ NEWS: "Thursday, July 12th: Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones."

><

(The fact that there is 'g' in the name is an evidence that they most probably heard the name from Mick's mouth by phone... Brian letter was ignored...)

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-11 17:55 by Doxa.

The story also appeared in "Disc" on July 7:



"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Great stuff, Deltics. Thanks!

Just goes to show that Brian was a twat.

Quote
Deltics

Anybody else notice the address at the top of the letter?
Powis Square was where Chas sought refuge in Turner's pad in Performance.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

way cool - thanks Deltics!
LoFL: Earl Phillips was Howlin' Wolf's drummer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-21 20:02 by with sssoul.