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Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: skipstone ()
Date: October 11, 2009 08:27

Squando is just jealous.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: October 11, 2009 10:00

Quote
skipstone
Hey squan - why do you find it so difficult to believe that Mick very well could have written it? If Nicky wrote it, then he'd get a songwriting credit. Afterall, Mick did come up with Brown Sugar - but surely he can't play it, as some people love to say. That's the point - he can play it - because if he wrote it, he played it, because he had to be able to play to have written it.

You're mixing up song writing and arranging here. The main melody, words and chords is the song, the rest falls under arrangement.

She's a Rainbow's melody is clearly part of the piano arrangment, if Nicky made up how the piano part went, it doesn't mean he'd deserve a co-song writing credit as the basis for the part is the vocal melody (most likely) purely written by Jagger - Richard.

They clearly had an influence on it though via their melody and as we hear on the Satanic Sessions box set further suggestions during the recording sessions, but had it not been Nicky the piano arrangement probably still would have been different.

Mick wrote Sympathy on his own, but check out how he played it, basic chords with words and vocal melody, probably the same with all of his songs at the time.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 11, 2009 10:22

This is a good thread.

Nicky's contribution in many Stones classics - "She's A Rainbow", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Angie" to name the biggest ones - is perhaps the most memorable any 'session-player' has done, at least as far as keyboards go. But like His Majesty suggested I think Nicky is doing exatly what any skillful session player supposed to do: take the songs proposed - be them as sketchy or rough - and try to arrange them, sharp them, play around them. I think ONE PLUS ONE movie is a great example of this: Hopkins takes the song and adds many fine little details to colour the basic melody and chord sequence. I guess with "She's A Rainbow" and "Angie" teh case is the same - perhaps with "She's A Rainbow" he is given more freer hands to 'play' with the melody, for example in the middle part.

I have never seen any demands Hopkins's side for credits. I think he was a pro enough to know what was asked from him. He did his work well, and got paid for that.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-11 10:24 by Doxa.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: squando ()
Date: October 11, 2009 13:02

"Squando is just jealous." Yeah that's it. If you're in a bad mood dude go pick a fight @ yr local....

"You're mixing up song writing and arranging here. The main melody, words and chords is the song, the rest falls under arrangement." Spot on His Majesty. But the middle piano solo is a different chord structure that appears to have been as a result of Nicky wandering off with his solo. There may have been underlying instrumentation to that chord structure however that Richards or Jagger may have wriiten to the song that Nicky plays to in that part and then is was subsequently moved.

Once again Doxa your words are well thought out and presented. Difference is with "Sympathy", "Angie" and so on is that we know that he was playing to a chord structure written by Mick and then Keith respectively regarding these two songs. The middle section re "Rainbow" is sketchy at best in knowing who actually laid down that chord sequence that Nicky plays to. He would have made a wonderful full time addition to the band. "I have never seen any demands Hopkins's side for credits." Too true but anyone thinking Nicky would have received a songwriting credit for "Rainbow" had he contributed as a songwriter during that time period is living in lala land.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-11 15:11 by squando.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 11, 2009 13:19

Quote
squando
. "I have never seen any demands Hopkins's side for credits." Too true but anyone thinking Nicky would have received a songwriting credit for "Rainbow" had he contributed as a songwriter during that time period is living in lala land.

That's true - it would take years before the 'whining' about the song credits really began... Taylor whined after his departure, Wyman (of his and some others behalf) not before STONE ALONE, etc. In some of these cases it is question of decades ("Jumpin Jack Flash", "Paint It Black"...). Still back in 1966-74 no one seemed to say anything (expect Ry Cooder?)... Anyway, as far as I know Hopkins never join in the club of 'whiners'.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-10-11 13:25 by Doxa.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: October 11, 2009 13:25

Quote
squando
But the middle piano solo is a different chord structure that appears to have been as a result of Nicky wandering off with his solo.

The middle section is just a repitition of the chorus and verse chords, but with fancy piano, strings and little licks from Keith on electric guitar.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: squando ()
Date: October 11, 2009 13:58

Right you are His Majesty. Just got around to restringing my guit and quickly played thru it. Well I guess that answers my question. Nicky played an arrangement he created to Mick's and Keith's already existing chord structure.

I guess this would have been the usual chord structure Keith/words and melody Mick thing then. I think it was very well produced as well esp in light of the fact that it was their first outing ("Satanics" that is) as producers.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Date: October 11, 2009 14:45

Like Mentioned before Nicky was the ultimate professional; not just it attitude but in his level of skill and imagination. I see that in One Plus One where his approach and feel to those very basic chord changes varies radically. As if Mick says "Nicky, can you make it swing a bit more? " Or "Nicky can you add a few runs when we get to such and such part?"
Re "Rainbow" - the chord structure and melody is the same over and over; but this is what a band of Stones' caliber does: to make it sound like there is all kinds of chnanes going on, when it is mainly a development, an expounding on a theme. Even JP Jones atonal string section follows the structure. He does not break with time.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: guitarbastard ()
Date: October 11, 2009 14:54

Quote
tippy2toes
Its a very neat song, wish they would do it live.

i've seen and heard it live on the BTB tour in switzerland. it was the "internet-song" of the night. but keith could hardly remember anything and just played that one "vibrato-note" ;-)
but i was happy to hear the song, because my girlfriend at the time really loved that song and i told her that the chances to hear that one live were really small...so the surprise was fantastic!

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: skipstone ()
Date: October 11, 2009 22:49

I was responding to the part mentioning that Nicky came up with it himself, which means, specifically, he wrote it. If that is the case. Arrangement and writing are two different things, I know that. How things can be suggested on this board lead to this kind of speculation.

Me saying Mick wrote it was the point, which is why I brought up songwriting credit for Nicky. Why that is so difficult I don't get. Squando - you're a fookin' genius. Have it.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: squando ()
Date: October 12, 2009 06:55

"i've seen and heard it live on the BTB tour in switzerland. it was the "internet-song" of the night. but keith could hardly remember anything and just played that one "vibrato-note" ;-)"

Yeah that just has me utterly miffed. Why bother incorporating the song into a possible set if you dunno what you are doing? Keith could have simply played acoustic rhythm guitar - it's not like there's alot to remember - and given the song something instead of leaving most to realise he had little or no idea of what he was doing. There is no way these internet pics would have ever been dumped on the band that moment on stage. Even more reason for Keith to have done a little homework prior to the gig instead of shooting pool.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: folke ()
Date: October 12, 2009 11:35

Maybe the song would be even better without the smurfs singing in it.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Date: October 12, 2009 12:31

Quote
squando
"i've seen and heard it live on the BTB tour in switzerland. it was the "internet-song" of the night. but keith could hardly remember anything and just played that one "vibrato-note" ;-)"

Yeah that just has me utterly miffed. Why bother incorporating the song into a possible set if you dunno what you are doing? Keith could have simply played acoustic rhythm guitar - it's not like there's alot to remember - and given the song something instead of leaving most to realise he had little or no idea of what he was doing. There is no way these internet pics would have ever been dumped on the band that moment on stage. Even more reason for Keith to have done a little homework prior to the gig instead of shooting pool.

yeah but that was the electric guitar part to the song. So from that point of view he is right.
But I agree very much that Keith, or others could come in a bit more prepared. They used to do this: change a song for the live stage. Matter of fact, were masters of it.

Re: She's a Rainbow
Posted by: squando ()
Date: October 12, 2009 14:05

"Maybe the song would be even better without the smurfs singing in it."

Hahaha. I get your point but absolutely love Brian's, Bill's and Keith's backing vox to this track. There's a real fairyland feel to those vocals that lend themselves well to the mood, sound and lyrics/imagery of the track.

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