With all the recent talk about the remastered Exile, and how it's one of the greatest double albums of all time, if vinyl was the main source of recordings every album from Steel Wheels would be double albums. Vinyl was limited to I believe 46 minutes total both sides. Steel Wheels is 53 minutes all the other ones are over 60 minutes.

Do you think all these would have been issued as double albums, or would all of them been reduced? What songs would have been cut? Would there in fact have been more albums due to all the songs? If more albums maybe more tours? Me, I think all but ABB would have been reduced. I also think we would have seen another album like Tatoo You (older songs put together for the sake of an LP) after Bridges, probably to celebrate the 40th anniversary. Instead of the Licks Tour, they may have toured behind a new album. Great food for thought.

It's so very lonely, you're 2,000 Light Years from home

I have VL, ABB, No security, B2B, Stripped, all on vinyl and they are all double albums.

Good point Saturn. For me the last three Stones albums have all been overlong and should have been cut down to 10 songs max - and not made into double vinyl albums. For starters, it would have ensured a better quality album in all three cases - VL, BTB, and ABB all had too much filler.

There was a point starting in the 90s where many artists just seem to abandon quality control and decided to pad albums out just because the CD format allowed them to do so. Don't know about you but my music attention span lasts about 40 mins per album before I went to hear something else (with a few obvious double album exceptions, of course!)

When I'm listening to my old vinaylalbums I think they're always awfully short. Yesterday I run through The Soft Parade and Waiting for the sun, and it was over before I have finished 2 cans of bear.

2 1 2 0

The increase of lenghth is one of the thing that has affected most creativity in the transition from vinyl to cd. The implosion of the "long playing" album form has then begun and has exploded once and for alla with mp3s.

Nowadays I look for duration of albums as a possible factor of quality. I am intrigued by the only fact that an album is less than 50mins long.

On the opposite i look with suspicion at extended (deluxe) editions that inflate a record just because they have timelenghth at hand.

Worst examples in the recent past have been imho deluxe edition of Joshua tree (filled with bsides already published in many forms and new crap, it hurts my ears to listen to that great "object of art" diluted and dissipated). Same thing for beck's odelay, so good and so tight in its original form.

Hope exile get a coherent and thinkful treatment...

RS speaking i think that ABB would have been a very good 40/43 mins long lp. The same is true imho for VL and B2B

What if Keith Richards walked into Mayberry?

[www.iorr.org]

IMO Most would have been reduced to single albums.

Maybe not...but for me (back in the day...the late '70s) when I was a
teen saving up my lawn-mowing money to buy records....$12-$15 was
a lot of $$. And I'm guessing that artists made conscious decisions (based on sales)
as to whether it was smart to release a double LP.

Fleetwood Mac released the double LP TUSK after Rumours because
there was such ahuge demand for new Fleetwood Mac music after Rumour's success.
Also...it gave Lindsay Buckingham a chance to take the band in a slightly different direction.

Had Rumours failed or was mediocre....doubt they or record company would have
wanted to take a chance with a double LP.

These days 38 minutes on a full price CD would seem like a rip off.
38 minutes or 70 minutes on a CD..same price. And with the cd/music industry suffering a bit..
..more for the $$ is ok with me (most of the time).

Quote
Come On
and it was over before I have finished 2 cans of bear.

Polar or Grizzly?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-27 17:12 by loog droog.

If vinyl still ruled the world we have have had better albums, because shorter, without fillers.
A double LP was almost each time a live album or a concept album.
Of course, there are some exceptions.

Still, the CD allowed complete concert footage to be released from many bands that would have required a triple LP, which was pretty rare.

[doctorstonesblog.blogspot.com]

Quote
maumau


On the opposite i look with suspicion at extended (deluxe) editions that inflate a record just because they have timelenghth at hand.

Worst examples in the recent past have been imho deluxe edition of Joshua tree (filled with bsides already published in many forms and new crap, it hurts my ears to listen to that great "object of art" diluted and dissipated). Same thing for beck's odelay, so good and so tight in its original form.

Hope exile get a coherent and thinkful treatment...

RS speaking i think that ABB would have been a very good 40/43 mins long lp. The same is true imho for VL and B2B

sort of agree....deluxe editions tend to be of CLASSIC albums. The deluxe editions are geared toward more enthusiastic fans
who probably already have the earlier version and want more from their favorite artists...b-sides etc...

so i agree that too much filler detracts from the art form...but i think deluxe editions are a different animal.

also...not familiar with what U@ did with Joshua Tree etc... but I'd prefer that the deluxe editions be 1 disk of the classic album and
the second disk contain all the b-sides & extras.

Albums would be shorter and "tighter", no fillers. With itunes etc it´s possible that albums will again be better, because people (at least some...) want to download only good songs and not buy fillers. We´ll see what will happen...

"Polar or Grizzly?"

There is no difference - same bear.

We wouldn't have the "Loudness war" mastering problem that has ruined a lot of music recently.

A bigger Bang springs to mind.

The Cult released Born Into This in 2007 and it clocks in at right around 41 minutes. They left two songs off the album that was on some deluxe edition second disc and I've added them to the album and it makes almost no difference in the length - it's not too long with the extra 2 songs.

Electric was around 38. Other albums were a little longer but not too long.

Soundgarden went nuts with putting everything possible on one CD, which I'm sure made their last two albums double albums.

Perhaps in the CD age the albums or LPs (I still consider CDs to be LPs because they are the album) should or could be called RLPs - Really Long Players.

I think attention span has nothing to do with it - it's strictly about the quality of the songs on an album. And that still holds true because there are bands that release 10-12 song albums that still have shitty songs on 'em.

In regards to what the band wants and feels and stands behind, putting a double album's worth of songs on one CD can be a good thing. But that's still in the ear of the listener. They might think some quirk is good whereas the fan will think they have lost their minds with pissing about.

Still, even an double albums like Exile and The Beatles and Physical Graffiti could all be better if they were shrunk a little bit. They are on my media player anyway.

Had Voodoo, Bridges and Bang been reduced to a more classic/standard album length I think they would have a lot more respect etc but they load the hell out of 'em with shit songs. And it seems that most of the B-sides should have been on the albums as it is so they still might be long.

But as far as the essential songs for an album, yeah, albums are too long these days. More for your money? I don't think so. Black And Blue is a good example - it's still $17.99 right now. So is Voodoo Lounge. For some of us here, BAB is the better album. So the amount paid for it is moot.

No matter what that debate is, the fact remains that CDs have been overpriced since they came out. The record industry refused to accept that. I do believe that is a big part of the reason why CD sales have been declining (along with the fact that some people only bought the records for one or two songs and then got a bunch of crap for the rest of it). What people don't get is with the noble idea of just buying singles from iTunes or wherever and thinking they're getting a deal, they aren't just for the sake of it. There are still shit songs being released as singles. It all costs the same in the end.

Release them all!!!

The Stones never did "concept" albums, no need to keep finished songs in the can. What one dislikes another one likes.

C

Quote
skipstone
The Cult released Born Into This in 2007 and it clocks in at right around 41 minutes. They left two songs off the album that was on some deluxe edition second disc and I've added them to the album and it makes almost no difference in the length - it's not too long with the extra 2 songs.

Electric was around 38. Other albums were a little longer but not too long.

Soundgarden went nuts with putting everything possible on one CD, which I'm sure made their last two albums double albums.

Perhaps in the CD age the albums or LPs (I still consider CDs to be LPs because they are the album) should or could be called RLPs - Really Long Players.

I think attention span has nothing to do with it -

i stopped reading your post at this point...did i miss anything important?

Ha ha. Yeah - I put a double album's worth of words in it. Give it a while, go back to it one day when you're milling about and forget you put it on.

btw saturn 57,

Steel Wheels was released on vinyl and it's a single album. 12 tracks - good value. 53 minutes? I'm not sure.

There was a gold vinyl edition too - though I've not seen one.

Well, the day it was released I bought STEEL WHEELS as a vinyl record (and I still don't have the CD version) and it was basically still a normal vinyl album with two distinguished sides, and seemingly, was purported to sound according to that concept (the B-side starts with "Rock& A Hard Place"). It is very similar to DIRTY WORK in this sense. I think VOODOO LOUNGE is the first Stones album that conceptually belongs to CD era. For me that means an endless list of songs, and no space to locate the songs into smaller units with their respective dramatic effect - the possibility of different 'sides' once did. (Of the old farts who don't accept the new possibilities of CD format is Bob Dylan - he sticks with that circa 10 to 12 songs per album format, and I think, with great results.)

I think we have lost a lot of thrill thanks to CD format. Once upon time the album has two 'first cuts'. When the A-side ends, you flip the disc and a 'new' exciting story begins... aaaah.... Think about the first time you heard "Street Fighting Man", "Midnight Rambler", "Bitch", "All Down The Line", etc. Those songs had a special, effective place in their original setting... Now they are buried in the middle of the run...(And of course, the same point holds on the songs to end the sides. The new format has lost some of the effect of songs like "Jig-Saw Puzzle", "Let It Loose", "Time Waits For No One", "Memory Motel", etc.)

There are (double) vinyl versions of the albums since VOODOO LOUNGE - does anyone know how the songs are divided into different sides?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-27 19:15 by Doxa.

No need to buy Steel Wheels as a CD Doxa - it sounds 'plastic' and thin. Not until I bought the CD (for car use) did I realise why people said it had a polished production.

I actually first had SW in cassette form - for car use!
Presumably SW was the last Stones album to be done in cassette form? Jump Back maybe?

B2B vinyl - will have to check it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-28 00:49 by Four Stone Walls.

With the knowledge of today they could make LP's with a running time of more the 100 hour .....Ha ha ha ........just joking

I remember that they released LP's with more the 60 minutes of music back then

__________________________

Quote
Four Stone Walls
No need to buy Steel Wheels as a CD Doxa - it sounds 'plastic' and thin. Until I bought the CD (for car use) did I realise why people said it had a polished production.

I actually first had SW in cassette form - for car use!
Presumably SW was the last Stones album to be done in cassette form? Jump Back maybe?

B2B vinyl - will have to check it.

I have offical cassettes of Babylon, Voodoo, Forty Licks and even "the Rock & Roll Circus" so Steel Wheels was not the last cassette release.
Hard to believe, I know.

i love the sound of vinyl records but to be honest back in the 80's i bought more cassettes than i did lps because of using car stereos and walkman .they were easier to carry around without getting ruined. it took me awhile to accept cd as the next format to buy music

The main criticism about Exile was that it would have been a perfect one-lp.
It's pure mathematics.
I think Bill said to an interviewer who was enthusiastic about 60s music that (something like) 98 per cent of 60s music was pure shit.
So: 98 per cent of (say) 35 minutes of 12 songs is/was pure shit.
This percentage surely didn't change since then, so you'll get more more and more shit the longer the long player got - but for a different price!
That's what reviews (also on this board) are about today: Which songs should have been dropped and not which song (mind the singular!) amongst the shit will become a classic.
Dear Mr Underasistant West Coast Promo Man, do you still have no idea why people download the (one) track they like at first listen instead of giving any of them a chance to listen to over and over in the circumstance of the long player?!

It seems that some people merely think it's about the number of minutes on the CD....
.... 40 minutes or 75 minutes..that's not the point.

Think of the ALBUM (cd or vinyl) as you would a family photo ALBUM...as a collection of songs or images
with a cohesive link. (an album can still be an album without being a CONCEPT album)

If you were creating a photo album devoted to your family...you wouldn't include your friends from work.

So..using A Bigger Bang as an example...there's probably 10-12 songs of the 16 that would make a stronger
ALBUM. The trick is knowing which songs to keep and which to eliminate. It's the producer's job to
help refine things. (the band & record company too)

So for the critics that said Exile would have been perfect as one lp....how do they know?
It's easier to say that after the material is released the public weighs in...but...

Nobody knows (for sure) what's going to connect with an audience. Keith has admitted that he
didn't think Satisfaction was anything special. John Mellencamp didn't think much of JACK & DIANE...and I
doubt that Paul McCartney ever thought that LET 'EM IN was going to get radio play.....but they were all hits.

That being said.....it is possible to create an ALBUM (in the true sense) without merely trying to record
a bunch of potential hits. Hey..to be honest, even though Tumbling Dice is a big hit from Exile..I never really
thought it fit with the rest of the album. It has a totally different mood. So....to me Exile might have been
even stronger as an ALBUM without TD.

Interesting talking about Exile in this context.
As an original vinyl (and cassette!) owner I find it impossible to conceive of this work in an 'unchaptered' version.

Each of the four sides was/is a distinct experience with its own character and identity. Side 2 strongly folk and country. Side 3 an eclectic mix of the upbeat, blues and ambient/transcendental.

Same with Other classic doubles - Beatles White - Rattle and Hum

I suppose the CD 'solution' to the Exile conundrum would be to have four separate CDs - Or two double-sided ones!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-28 01:46 by Four Stone Walls.

Quote
Doxa
Well, the day it was released I bought STEEL WHEELS as a vinyl record (and I still don't have the CD version) and it was basically still a normal vinyl album with two distinguished sides, and seemingly, was purported to sound according to that concept (the B-side starts with "Rock& A Hard Place"). It is very similar to DIRTY WORK in this sense. I think VOODOO LOUNGE is the first Stones album that conceptually belongs to CD era. For me that means an endless list of songs, and no space to locate the songs into smaller units with their respective dramatic effect - the possibility of different 'sides' once did. (Of the old farts who don't accept the new possibilities of CD format is Bob Dylan - he sticks with that circa 10 to 12 songs per album format, and I think, with great results.)

I think we have lost a lot of thrill thanks to CD format. Once upon time the album has two 'first cuts'. When the A-side ends, you flip the disc and a 'new' exciting story begins... aaaah.... Think about the first time you heard "Street Fighting Man", "Midnight Rambler", "Bitch", "All Down The Line", etc. Those songs had a special, effective place in their original setting... Now they are buried in the middle of the run...(And of course, the same point holds on the songs to end the sides. The new format has lost some of the effect of songs like "Jig-Saw Puzzle", "Let It Loose", "Time Waits For No One", "Memory Motel", etc.)

There are (double) vinyl versions of the albums since VOODOO LOUNGE - does anyone know how the songs are divided into different sides?

- Doxa

I agree with you Doxa about losing the thrill. It was a thrill to listen to Side 2 and the first cut set the tone. With Exile it was always a decision of which side to listen too. Each side was its own litlle record. Exile on 1 cd has lost some of its charm. On Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever, on the cd he says this is were the people who have the album have to get up and turn it over. Hilarious, but I think he realized early on that CDs would change how albums were constructed. A lot a times with a cd it takes more time to hear the entire cd (especially the 60-70 minute ones) as you tend to hear the 1st half more.

It's so very lonely, you're 2,000 Light Years from home

It's called 'progress'

before the printing press some people used to take the trouble to copy books by hand

and before books there were wonderful things called scrolls

before the internet people used to write letters - by hand too!

before radio and television people in the same street/neighbourhood used to communicate - and children played outside and created their own games

"Did you really used to listen to plastic rotating discs being scratched by a needle Daddy?"

...... I said "Oh Yeah!"

Get the Picture?


.... Primitive Vinyl Cool ..... PVC



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-28 11:49 by Four Stone Walls.

Quote
Doxa


I think we have lost a lot of thrill thanks to CD format. Once upon time the album has two 'first cuts'. When the A-side ends, you flip the disc and a 'new' exciting story begins... aaaah.... Think about the first time you heard "Street Fighting Man", "Midnight Rambler", "Bitch", "All Down The Line", etc. Those songs had a special, effective place in their original setting... Now they are buried in the middle of the run...

- Doxa

TRUE!!
Someone made a complete fool of me when I suggested him to cut cd's into parts and listen to them like its a vinyl album. Dont remember exactly which album, but it was one of these 80 min cd's. Sometimes I play track 5-8 or 9-12 and consider it as side 2 or 3. I just put attention to these songs and don't start at the beginning. You can make a better opinion of the album.
So there are no classic songs -e.g.- between track 10-13 which are lost in the massive amount of 70-80 min cd's.
Want to be really crazy? Rename the albums on your iPod in two or four sides. So you can play side 3 or 4 from ABB or B2B.I know someone did and he still talks about music like it's 1972 or 1981. .... the 2nd song on side 3 sucks... but the rest is so good....

Enjoy
PR

Quote
loog droog

Quote
Come On
and it was over before I have finished 2 cans of bear.

Polar or Grizzly?

Really rough stuff!