Theology according to the Rolling Stones, by Dr. Bob Beltz
August 5, 4:32 PM


Modern Theologians?

I’ve been thinking about playing the Rolling Stones in church. Over the last few weeks I’ve been teaching a series on the supernatural universe and I can’t shake this old song the Stones recorded back in 1968. You usually don’t think of the Stones as being valuable assets in communicating spiritual truth, but I think one of their early songs communicates an essential spiritual truth in a way that some of the best of theologians can’t equal. Even more unlikely, the name of the song I refer to is “Sympathy for the Devil.”
The song was written by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. In later interviews Jagger attributed inspiration for the piece to Baudelaire, but critics have linked it to Russian novelist Mikhail Bulgakov’s The Master and the Margarita. Sung in the first person, Jagger begins the piece by singing:

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for long, long years
Stole many man's soul and faith

In these short phrases the song introduces the concept of personified evil. Jagger later identifies his narrator specifically as “Lucifer.” When theologians attempt to piece together the origins of evil they usually identify Lucifer as one of the highest order of angels that became corrupted through his great beauty and decided he no longer wanted to serve God, but be God. He was cast out of God’s presence and in this scenario convinced one-third of the angelic ranks to rebel with him. These fallen angels then became what we today identify as the Devil and demons that wage war against God and his purposes. Note how the song spells this out. The second stanza finds the narrator informing us that:

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Then Mick launches into the chorus:

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

We live in a complex world. It is “puzzling.” It is a world where “good” happens. There is love, beauty, compassion, creativity, and wonder. But it is also a world in which pain, suffering, death, and destruction are daily occurrences. Religious leaders, thinkers, and philosophers throughout the ages have tried to create unified systems of thought that bring these conflicting realities together in some meaningful explanation of life. The Stones continue:

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me

From the time of Christ through the modern era, “Sympathy for the Devil” paints a picture of evil at work in the most destructive of human events. The question we need to ask is whether this concept reflects a primitive belief system that needed to invent the realm of the demonic to explain the tragedies of life, or whether the picture and description in the Bible, on which the concepts contained in the song are based, is a timeless description of the true nature of the fallen universe.

In one final stanza, Lucifer suggests that:

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

The implication is that wrong can be right and right can be wrong, or at least that our narrator can twist the facts in a way that “puzzle” us. The conclusion is a warning:

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste.

I don’t think Jagger and Richards necessarily hold a biblical world-view. I imagine they were simply trying to create a song that wrestled with the fact that something is horribly wrong with the way things are and found the imagery of the Bible helpful in communicating the idea. I remember the outrage that accompanied the release of the song in 1968. The Stones were accused of being Satanists and perverting the mind of America’s youth. At the time I couldn't have cared less. I just thought the music was great. Then when a young man was murdered during the Stones concert at Altamont the rumor spread that it happened while the band was performing this piece. It wasn’t true (they were actually performing “Under My Thumb”), but the rumors grew. Then several years later, as I wrestled with these issues and sought to come to grips with the problem of pain and evil in the world I rediscovered the song and found it to be pure genius. As I found myself addressing these issues in my teaching work I couldn’t shake the song from my mind. I even went to YouTube and discovered that the session in the studio when the song was recorded back in June of 1968 had been filmed. It seems that Jean Luc-Godard was working on a film on the American counter-culture and dropped in the studio to shoot some footage of the Stones – just as they were recording the song.

So what do you think? Should I play it in church? The Stones and theology? Jesus and “Sympathy for the Devil?” What would Jesus do – or play?

[www.examiner.com]





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-06 02:54 by Edith Grove.

Yes that is the gospel according to jagger

Actually, to go off and say "spiritual truth" is so foreign to me to begin with and then to wonder how this would go over in a church? That song was obviously not intended to be played in church.

And most church goers of, say, a certain age, would probably get up and leave anyway, seeing that they'd rather listen to Michael Bolton or some other gooey singer.

BUT it would be really funny if someone was to play it in church, since I am not the church "kind" nor, ha ha, religulous.

What kind of church is this? I'm Greek Orthodox, and I cannot fathom this being played in Church. I would think most of my Catholic brethren would agree.

So my say is: No. Absolutely not. Very inappropriate.

Again, what kind of church is this?

"You usually don’t think of the Stones as being valuable assets in communicating spiritual truth" -I agree

"but I think one of their early songs communicates an essential spiritual truth in a way that some of the best of theologians can’t equal" - Really. Wow. Even though sympathy is so highly regarded, its just rock'n'roll, I would expect 2000 years of theology has produced something better to communicate your message than this song to your congregation . . .

Play it very loud, all the way up.

It's just this simple - at the end of Castaway, he's offered...seafood.

If this Jesus 'person' were to come back does anyone really think he'd walk up to someone wearing the cross thing and be happy? Like Keith said, hell of a logo!

Quote
NorthShoreBlues2
What kind of church is this?

Could be this church:

I agree with NorthShoreBlues: there is no spiritual depth in Sympathy for the Devil. Just striking imagery set against a great rhythm. The song says very banal things from a theological point of view: that the Devil is at work in all the horrid events of history. The originality is not in the content, but only in the fact that Jagger actually impersonates the Devil: "Hope you guessed MY name". If the song was written at the third persona, it would be completely trivial.

Thus it is true that the appeal of the song is in its blasphemous dimension: not the blasphemy of what is being told, but in the blasphemy of saying it at the first persona. Like doing the sign of the devil with one's hand, more or less (some christians get offended if you do that!). That been said, it's not much blasphemy anyway, and it would take quite a biggot to be offended. Still, this song has clearly nothing to do in a church IMO.

I'd say something like Shine A Light is far more spiritual, evoking the spirit of their one time mentor. Plus it's gospel too.

[electronicinternet.tripod.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Quote
NorthShoreBlues2
What kind of church is this?

Maybe the church of the sacred bleeding heart of Jesus
Located somewhere in Los Angeles, California.

I don't think Sympathy for The Devil was ever intended to be taken as seriously as the article above suggests, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a few insights (whether they came from Mick or Bulgakov is another matter).
I can't imagine anything by the Stones being played as part of a service of worship - but that doesn't mean that you couldn't use some of their songs to provide illustrations or insight into spiritual things. They've got an honesty that most of the gooey-Michael-Bolton music hasn't, although sadly most Christians (like most people of all religions and none) seem to prefer the sentimental middle-of-the-road stuff.

I know one minister who half-seriously suggested playing I Can't Get No Satisfaction to the Bible study group to illustrate the kind of questions being addressed by the book of Ecclesiastes:

[www.biblegateway.com]

- and if Gimme Shelter isn't some kind of prayer of desperation, I don't know what is.

Quote
open-g

Quote
NorthShoreBlues2
What kind of church is this?

Maybe the church of the sacred bleeding heart of Jesus
Located somewhere in Los Angeles, California.

LOL. Nice, indeed . . .

I think the verses to "Saint Of Me" would be much more spiritual.

BTW, always thought Mick should have sang the verses with Keith doing the choruses on SOM.

Likely a titch more appropriate than Rip This Joint.

I think you should play it "Art is a hammer to beat the world, not a mirror to reflect it." Nikolai Vladimirovich Nekrasov (18 December 1900—4 October 1938)

In contrast to some of the spiritual know it alls above, I think this is a very deep and valid song on a theological level. The bands intentions are irrelevent in relation to the social tidal wave it caused. Godard didnt film this session by accident

I don't see what the goal would be to play this song in a church, I assume during a service? "Just want to see his face" would be more appropriate.

So Humanriff, can you explain what you think is deep and valid about the song on a theological level?

I like Edith Grove's approach to the lyrics. I always felt strange listening to 'Sympathy' played live AMONG other songs of the set. I always think of it as something done in the studio for it's own sake. Whatever song comes after or before 'Sympathy' gets sucked in somehow. It is a great song all the way round and yes it could be played in a church. What about 'Saint of me' Edith Grove?

I agree to say that Saint of me is much more interesting than Sympathy. But if you want to hear what is Mick's theological thinking, listen Joy, Dancing in the starlight and God gave me everything on Goddess in the doorway. There you got a real spiritual thought.

Ottonaeau. I think the role play that Jagger uses in this song is a theologically valid way of approaching the question of evil which the song is addressing. What I meant was it is irrelevant how shallow Jaggers intentions were (I dont personally think they were shallow at all, my personal take is that the religious side of Mick Jagger helped produce a ot of the Stones greatest music (just wanna see.., Moonlight Mile,Shine A Light etc) this song had a stunning sociological impact at the time. Did you ever see the interviews with Mick and I think it was Malcolm Muggeridge and an Archbishop (digs in ancient memory banks
Also if i remember correctly Mick converted to Catholicism for Bianca, this is a highly spiritual person in my opinion.

I love discussing this theme in relation to the Stones so if you think im talking arse, fire away

I'm with open-g,

The opening of Faraway Eyes is much more interesting for a religious service.

You always have the lord by your side.
I was so pleased to be informed of this,
I ran twenty red lights in his honour.
Thank you Jesus, thank you lord.


On the internet nobody knows
you're Mick Jagger

Quote
Kirk
I like Edith Grove's approach to the lyrics. I always felt strange listening to 'Sympathy' played live AMONG other songs of the set. I always think of it as something done in the studio for it's own sake. Whatever song comes after or before 'Sympathy' gets sucked in somehow. It is a great song all the way round and yes it could be played in a church. What about 'Saint of me' Edith Grove?

Hello, Kirk!

That article was written by Dr. Bob Beltz. A quick search shows that he is an author and has a mini-biography on Amazon.
I just happened to find that article in my inbox the other day and thought it would be good to share here.

Cheers!

Back Of My Hand .........



ROCKMAN

................................................................................Neophyte - Gustua Dore 1877



ROCKMAN

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name."

Hmm, what do you mean, Mick, you hope we guessed
your name? You told us your name in the song. Lucifer.
I mean, the title of the song is Sympathy For The DEVIL.
What is there to guess?

Yet, even after repeating the "hope you guessed" line
quite a few times, there Mick is again, in the outro, over
and over again, taunting us, "Tell me, baby, what's my
name?"

Why is Mick singing that? It makes no sense. We know
his name.

And then there's the second part of the "guess" line:
"But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game."

Hmm, nobody is puzzled by the nature of the Devil's
game. The Devil's game is very straightforward. He
wants you to give in to temptation and screw up so badly
that God rejects you completely and you burn in hell
forever. It's simple. No puzzle there.

Hmm, speaking of God, now THERE is a guy whose
game people often say they are puzzled by. It's the
age-old theological question: "If God is all-good and
all-powerful, why does he sometimes allow terrible things
to happen, likewars and assassinations and tsunamis?"
Another way people say it is, "Why does God allow bad
things to happen to good people?" And in one way or
another every religion has to deal with these questions.

So, yes, strange as it may sound, I am saying that I think
the name of the narrator of the song Sympathy For The
Devil is "God".

Wait, please, hear me out. I actually have ten more reasons
for thinking this.

One: Mick as much as says so. "Just as every cop is a
criminal" (that's not true), "and all the sinners saints" (that's
not true either), "as heads is tails" (not just false, but the
exact opposite), "just call me Lucifer" (equally false, and
also I believe intentionally the exact opposite of the truth).

Two: With regard to the line "I was there when Jesus Christ
had his moment of doubt", well, although the Devil was
specifically with Jesus twice, once in the wilderness and
once in the garden at Gethsemane, on neither occasion
did Jesus express any doubt whatsoever. On the contrary,
he was a pillar of certitude both times. Jesus had his moment
of doubt later, on the cross. And who was there at that moment?
Who did Jesus speak to?

Jesus: "My GOD, my GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Three: With regard to "Or I'll lay your soul to waste", actually,
Satan has no power to lay anyone's soul to waste. He has only
the power of temptation. Your soul can be laid to waste by only
two entities: You, by giving in to temptation, and GOD, by smiting
you if and when He feels like it. Check out the the Old Testament
for numerous warnings and examples of GOD's god-awful temper.

Four: With regard to, "I made damn sure that Pilate washed his
hands and sealed his fate", note, there is no mention in the Bible
of Satan or temptation having anything to do with Pilate's decision.
But in John 19:10-11, guess who is cited by Jesus as having Pilate
on a string?

Pilate: "Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee?"

Jesus: "Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it
were given thee from above." From GOD.

Five: With regard to, "I killed the Czar... Anastasia (the Czar's
daughter) screamed in vain," here's a quote from a short bio of
Czar Nicholas II (www.geocities.com/Vienna/9463/nicholas.html):
"Nicholas was extremely spiritual in nature as was his wife and
children... Nicholas believed that all that happened to him was
GOD's will and therefore never attempted to alter what he
considered his fate."

Six: With regard to, "I rode a tank, held a general's rank, when
the blitzkrieg raged", please click the following link to read the
entirety of General George Patton's extraordinary letter to GOD
(Favorite excerpt: "You (GOD) have to choose which side you
are on. You must come to my aid, so that I can kill the entire
German army, and offer it like a birthday gift to the Baby Jesus."):
[ardennes44.free.fr].

Seven: With regard to "While your kings and queens fought for
ten decades for the GODs they made", well, that's pretty self-
explanatory. I'll only add that the Hundred Years War's most
famous leader and combatant, Joan of Arc, was completely
motivated by visions of and from GOD.

Eight: With regard to "Who Killed the Kennedys", here is Bobby
Kennedy's favorite (according to Bobby's son) quotation from
Abraham Lincoln: "I know there is a GOD and that He hates
injustice. I see the storm coming and I see GOD's hand in it.
If GOD has a place and a part for me, I am ready."

Nine: With regard to "I lay traps for troubadours who get killed
before they reach Bombay", well, this clearly is a warning to
20th-21st century singer-songwriters to be careful about launching
themselves on messianic Crusades, in the name of GOD, as did
their 11th-13th century counterparts, the original troubadours, with
often disasterous results.

Ten: In a very famous Biblical passage (Exodus 3:13-14), Moses
asks GOD what his name is, so that Moses will be able to tell the
children of Israel exactly who it is that is suddenly issuing all these
orders. And GOD replies, "I AM THAT I AM. Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you." The names
Yahweh, Jehovah, and Jah all derive from the original Hebrew
for "I AM".

Well, I just played Sympathy, and I count (in its contracted form,
"I'm", and its implied form, as in "(I am) pleased to meet you...")
at least 8 uses of the phrase "I am".

Hmm, okay, but then why is the song called Sympathy For The
DEVIL?

Because to be fair you really ought to have some sympathy for
the Devil because the Devil often gets the blame for stuff that GOD
causes, or at least allows to happen, or that people allow to happen
to themselves. And the Stones certainly had sympathy for the Devil
at that time in their lives, as they were similarly being unfairly blamed
for all kinds of things that were none of their doing.

Its funny to think how everyone considered Mick audacious for invoking the
voice of Satan. How much more audacious of him to instead be
ever-so-slyly invoking the voice of God Almighty?

Mick's forty year old puzzle, "Guess my name", is hereby solved.

Quote
NorthShoreBlues2
What kind of church is this? I'm Greek Orthodox, and I cannot fathom this being played in Church. I would think most of my Catholic brethren would agree.

So my say is: No. Absolutely not. Very inappropriate.

Again, what kind of church is this?

"You usually don’t think of the Stones as being valuable assets in communicating spiritual truth" -I agree

"but I think one of their early songs communicates an essential spiritual truth in a way that some of the best of theologians can’t equal" - Really. Wow. Even though sympathy is so highly regarded, its just rock'n'roll, I would expect 2000 years of theology has produced something better to communicate your message than this song to your congregation . . .

never in the Greek church!!!!!!!

Quote
twenny revlights
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name."

Hmm, what do you mean, Mick, you hope we guessed
your name? You told us your name in the song. Lucifer.
I mean, the title of the song is Sympathy For The DEVIL.
What is there to guess?

Yet, even after repeating the "hope you guessed" line
quite a few times, there Mick is again, in the outro, over
and over again, taunting us, "Tell me, baby, what's my
name?"

Why is Mick singing that? It makes no sense. We know
his name.

And then there's the second part of the "guess" line:
"But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game."

Hmm, nobody is puzzled by the nature of the Devil's
game. The Devil's game is very straightforward. He
wants you to give in to temptation and screw up so badly
that God rejects you completely and you burn in hell
forever. It's simple. No puzzle there.

Hmm, speaking of God, now THERE is a guy whose
game people often say they are puzzled by. It's the
age-old theological question: "If God is all-good and
all-powerful, why does he sometimes allow terrible things
to happen, likewars and assassinations and tsunamis?"
Another way people say it is, "Why does God allow bad
things to happen to good people?" And in one way or
another every religion has to deal with these questions.

So, yes, strange as it may sound, I am saying that I think
the name of the narrator of the song Sympathy For The
Devil is "God".

Wait, please, hear me out. I actually have ten more reasons
for thinking this.

One: Mick as much as says so. "Just as every cop is a
criminal" (that's not true), "and all the sinners saints" (that's
not true either), "as heads is tails" (not just false, but the
exact opposite), "just call me Lucifer" (equally false, and
also I believe intentionally the exact opposite of the truth).

Two: With regard to the line "I was there when Jesus Christ
had his moment of doubt", well, although the Devil was
specifically with Jesus twice, once in the wilderness and
once in the garden at Gethsemane, on neither occasion
did Jesus express any doubt whatsoever. On the contrary,
he was a pillar of certitude both times. Jesus had his moment
of doubt later, on the cross. And who was there at that moment?
Who did Jesus speak to?

Jesus: "My GOD, my GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Three: With regard to "Or I'll lay your soul to waste", actually,
Satan has no power to lay anyone's soul to waste. He has only
the power of temptation. Your soul can be laid to waste by only
two entities: You, by giving in to temptation, and GOD, by smiting
you if and when He feels like it. Check out the the Old Testament
for numerous warnings and examples of GOD's god-awful temper.

Four: With regard to, "I made damn sure that Pilate washed his
hands and sealed his fate", note, there is no mention in the Bible
of Satan or temptation having anything to do with Pilate's decision.
But in John 19:10-11, guess who is cited by Jesus as having Pilate
on a string?

Pilate: "Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee?"

Jesus: "Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it
were given thee from above." From GOD.

Five: With regard to, "I killed the Czar... Anastasia (the Czar's
daughter) screamed in vain," here's a quote from a short bio of
Czar Nicholas II (www.geocities.com/Vienna/9463/nicholas.html):
"Nicholas was extremely spiritual in nature as was his wife and
children... Nicholas believed that all that happened to him was
GOD's will and therefore never attempted to alter what he
considered his fate."

Six: With regard to, "I rode a tank, held a general's rank, when
the blitzkrieg raged", please click the following link to read the
entirety of General George Patton's extraordinary letter to GOD
(Favorite excerpt: "You (GOD) have to choose which side you
are on. You must come to my aid, so that I can kill the entire
German army, and offer it like a birthday gift to the Baby Jesus."):
[ardennes44.free.fr].

Seven: With regard to "While your kings and queens fought for
ten decades for the GODs they made", well, that's pretty self-
explanatory. I'll only add that the Hundred Years War's most
famous leader and combatant, Joan of Arc, was completely
motivated by visions of and from GOD.

Eight: With regard to "Who Killed the Kennedys", here is Bobby
Kennedy's favorite (according to Bobby's son) quotation from
Abraham Lincoln: "I know there is a GOD and that He hates
injustice. I see the storm coming and I see GOD's hand in it.
If GOD has a place and a part for me, I am ready."

Nine: With regard to "I lay traps for troubadours who get killed
before they reach Bombay", well, this clearly is a warning to
20th-21st century singer-songwriters to be careful about launching
themselves on messianic Crusades, in the name of GOD, as did
their 11th-13th century counterparts, the original troubadours, with
often disasterous results.

Ten: In a very famous Biblical passage (Exodus 3:13-14), Moses
asks GOD what his name is, so that Moses will be able to tell the
children of Israel exactly who it is that is suddenly issuing all these
orders. And GOD replies, "I AM THAT I AM. Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you." The names
Yahweh, Jehovah, and Jah all derive from the original Hebrew
for "I AM".

Well, I just played Sympathy, and I count (in its contracted form,
"I'm", and its implied form, as in "(I am) pleased to meet you...")
at least 8 uses of the phrase "I am".

Hmm, okay, but then why is the song called Sympathy For The
DEVIL?

Because to be fair you really ought to have some sympathy for
the Devil because the Devil often gets the blame for stuff that GOD
causes, or at least allows to happen, or that people allow to happen
to themselves. And the Stones certainly had sympathy for the Devil
at that time in their lives, as they were similarly being unfairly blamed
for all kinds of things that were none of their doing.

Its funny to think how everyone considered Mick audacious for invoking the
voice of Satan. How much more audacious of him to instead be
ever-so-slyly invoking the voice of God Almighty?

Mick's forty year old puzzle, "Guess my name", is hereby solved.

Wow. Very interesting stuff here . . . perhaps you should take what you wrote and start a new "Track Talk" thread. Love to hear others opinions, but probably won't because your point of view is buried in this thread . . .

twenny revlights you are the real Indiana Jones

And lest we forget . . .


I think I had enough of your religion
It's tough, it's a state of mind
I don't need it!


On the internet nobody knows
you're Mick Jagger