It was not a bootleg. Teldec's REST OF THE BEST box set even had a sticker on the front that announced the 45's bonus inclusion. This was carried by major retailers who would never go near a bootleg (I was an employee of one of these chains). It was only available briefly and then withdrawn, but it was legitimately released by Decca's German label though full clearance had not been properly obtained. Discogs claims no commercial copies were available, only review copies, but I saw two of these for sale in December 1983 in the States with the single. They were being distributed and by London Records (Stateside) as an import.

[www.discogs.com]

Quote
Rocky Dijon
It was not a bootleg. Teldec's REST OF THE BEST box set even had a sticker on the front that announced the 45's bonus inclusion. This was carried by major retailers who would never go near a bootleg (I was an employee of one of these chains). It was only available briefly and then withdrawn, but it was legitimately released by Decca's German label though full clearance had not been properly obtained. Discogs claims no commercial copies were available, only review copies, but I saw two of these for sale in December 1983 in the States with the single. They were being distributed and by London Records (Stateside) as an import.

[www.discogs.com]

You're right, Rocky, and Discogs has it wrong.

Full story here by our long-lost member and my collector friend alimente:

[iorr.org]

I hope, they never release it. It´s such a great bootleg, it only can loose it´s mystic if it´s offically available.
These days, everyone can get it in great quality

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
drewmaster

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
René
First released on:
The Rolling Stones - “The Rest Of The Best” 4LP Box bonus 7” single
(Teldec 6.30125FX) Germany, December 1984 (2nd edition only)

Just to note that the song has never been officially released. The 7" single is a bootleg.

Mathijs

It was officially released by mistake, then withdrawn.

No, it was a bootleg, never anything official

Mathijs

But included in a regional (Germany), legal release.

Interesting. Legal but not actually available for purchase, according to [www.discogs.com]

"No commercial issues of the bonus box set were on sale. Only a few copies had been distributed to the press, and some copies were rescued for private collections."

Drew

No, it is a bootleg, just as Swingin' Pig releases were available in Germany and Luxembourg in regular shops and sold as 'official' releases in the 1980's and 1990's.

Mathijs

Is Teldec a bootleg label?

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
drewmaster

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
René
First released on:
The Rolling Stones - “The Rest Of The Best” 4LP Box bonus 7” single
(Teldec 6.30125FX) Germany, December 1984 (2nd edition only)

Just to note that the song has never been officially released. The 7" single is a bootleg.

Mathijs

It was officially released by mistake, then withdrawn.

No, it was a bootleg, never anything official

Mathijs

But included in a regional (Germany), legal release.

Interesting. Legal but not actually available for purchase, according to [www.discogs.com]

"No commercial issues of the bonus box set were on sale. Only a few copies had been distributed to the press, and some copies were rescued for private collections."

Drew

No, it is a bootleg, just as Swingin' Pig releases were available in Germany and Luxembourg in regular shops and sold as 'official' releases in the 1980's and 1990's.

Mathijs

Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.

Mathijs

"No commercial issues of the bonus box set were on sale. Only a few copies had been distributed to the press, and some copies were rescued for private collections."

This is wrong - bought mine in Vienna in a record-store in the first district of Vienna (long gone by the way). It was on sale for about 2 weeks but mind you that the box-set was already available for a year (without the single) and there was no promotion for this almost "secret" re-release. I catched it by surprise when I read the sticker and bought it right away.And then it was gone again.
discogs is wrong in this case.

Quote
frankotero
Is Teldec a bootleg label?

Isn't that an East German label?

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
frankotero
Is Teldec a bootleg label?

Isn't that an East German label?

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote
Mathijs
Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.
Mathijs

The Russian Decca releases were counterfeits and not actually Decca releases, but fakes manufactured to take advantage of loose copyright control and the import market. The Teldec box set with the limited edition 45 was a legitimate release by Teldec - the German branch of Decca, but their source (for the 45 and other tracks) was a bootleg copy. They did not obtain permission from ABKCO but moved ahead with the release without proper authorization. It gave the set a shot in the arm and copies were quickly snatched up by London Records as an import here in the States, but despite the official release by a non-bootleg label, Teldec acted without authorization and the sets with the bootlegs were withdrawn from the market.

I think this is probably the same point Mathijs was making.

Quote
MrEcho

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
frankotero
Is Teldec a bootleg label?

Isn't that an East German label?

[en.wikipedia.org]

Hamburg is pretty close to the previous border...I was close.

I believe Rocky Dijon got it right. This should clear up everything. I had a chance at this set once at a fair in Frankfurt. Had to pass because it was crazy expensive.

Quote
Swayed1967
Pure poetry from the crackle to the sniff. No shame in farmyard congress if the pigs are willing.

never took this to mean bestiality, but rather sex with cops..especially with the line that follows.

Quote
HalfNanker

Quote
Swayed1967
Pure poetry from the crackle to the sniff. No shame in farmyard congress if the pigs are willing.

never took this to mean bestiality, but rather sex with cops..especially with the line that follows.

Well, I don't think the young gentleman in this song is too fussy. He might prefer a cop but he's gotten down with the hogs in the past. At least that's my take.

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
Mathijs
Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.
Mathijs

The Russian Decca releases were counterfeits and not actually Decca releases, but fakes manufactured to take advantage of loose copyright control and the import market. The Teldec box set with the limited edition 45 was a legitimate release by Teldec - the German branch of Decca, but their source (for the 45 and other tracks) was a bootleg copy. They did not obtain permission from ABKCO but moved ahead with the release without proper authorization. It gave the set a shot in the arm and copies were quickly snatched up by London Records as an import here in the States, but despite the official release by a non-bootleg label, Teldec acted without authorization and the sets with the bootlegs were withdrawn from the market.

I think this is probably the same point Mathijs was making.

BTW - those Russian DEccas were superb.

Quote
HalfNanker

Quote
Swayed1967
Pure poetry from the crackle to the sniff. No shame in farmyard congress if the pigs are willing.

never took this to mean bestiality, but rather sex with cops..especially with the line that follows.

Agreed 100% but I didn't want to embarrass Swayed1967 if he thinks there is no shame if the pig doesn't actually tell him no. Very few four-legged pigs carry truncheons, though some may wear helmets. One wonders what he makes of the Pekingese line in "Emotional Rescue."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-17 20:14 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
HalfNanker

Quote
Swayed1967
Pure poetry from the crackle to the sniff. No shame in farmyard congress if the pigs are willing.

never took this to mean bestiality, but rather sex with cops..especially with the line that follows.

Agreed 100% but I didn't want to embarrass Swayed1967 if he thinks there is no shame if the pig doesn't actually tell him no. Very few four-legged pigs carry truncheons, though some may wear helmets.

Then someone please explain the line ‘I’ve had pigs in the farmyard…’ When is the last time you had sex with a policeman in a farmyard? In England are cops famous for sodomizing lonesome schoolboys in farmyards?

No, it’s much more plausible to think that prior to venturing into the big city our hero gratified himself with the aid of farm animals such as pigs. He then makes a pun about it…followed by that impish sniff. I mean here's a kid that wants to go to prison for the free sex - seducing a pig seems almost tame by comparison.

And you needn’t have feared embarrassing me, Dijon, since I never make love to the animals I eat. (But if someone were to rub a little apple sauce on my pork chop…) I was merely adopting the protagonist’s perspective. And I’m 100% correct. I'm so sure I'm right that I hereby invoke Mathijs and his haughty air of authority. If Mathijs says CS Blues was only released as a bootleg then goddammit it was a bootleg! And if I say he mucked up pigs he mucked them!

You are certainly becoming our resident comedian. You'll never beat Skippy or StonesTod in their prime, though.

I could, of course, be wrong, but I thought "pigs in the farmyard" was a play on words. Pigs with their truncheons and helmets being police and farmyard referring to a council estate since estate and farm are used interchangeably despite having double meanings in rural and urban areas in England.

Mathijs has strong opinions and defends them in a second language. I don't think he's actually haughty. He did once knee me in the groin for suggesting Sugar Blue played harp on "Black Limousine," but that doesn't make him haughty so much as passionate in his reactions.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-18 15:15 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
You are certainly becoming our resident comedian. You'll never beat Skippy or StonesTod in their prime, though.

I could, of course, be wrong, but I thought "pigs in the farmyard" was a play on words. Pigs with their truncheons and helmets being police and farmyard referring to a council estate since estate and farm are used interchangeably despite having double meanings in rural and urban areas in England.

Mathijs has strong opinions and defends them in a second language. I don't think he's actually haughty. He did once knee me in the groin for suggesting Sugar Blue played harp on "Black Limousine," but that doesn't make him haughty so much as passionate in his reactions.

That was me!

I think it was both of you to be perfectly honest. I fathered no more children after that. Coincidence? I think not.

Quote
Swayed1967
And I’m 100% correct. I'm so sure I'm right that I hereby invoke Mathijs and his haughty air of authority.

Haughty, me? Arrogant, yes. Disdainful: absolutely. Do I feel superior? I AM superior.

But haughty? Sure not.

Mathijs

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
Mathijs
Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.
Mathijs

The Russian Decca releases were counterfeits and not actually Decca releases, but fakes manufactured to take advantage of loose copyright control and the import market. The Teldec box set with the limited edition 45 was a legitimate release by Teldec - the German branch of Decca, but their source (for the 45 and other tracks) was a bootleg copy. They did not obtain permission from ABKCO but moved ahead with the release without proper authorization. It gave the set a shot in the arm and copies were quickly snatched up by London Records as an import here in the States, but despite the official release by a non-bootleg label, Teldec acted without authorization and the sets with the bootlegs were withdrawn from the market.

I think this is probably the same point Mathijs was making.

Yes, Mathijs probably meant it like this, but then he should have been more precise instead of mentioning TELDEC in the same vein as Swingin' Pig (which was a protection gap/public domain label) or the russian counterfeit label - and that's clearly not the case: TELDEC back then was the official distributor for the Stones pre-1971 material owned by ABKCO, just like Universal distributes ABKCO-material nowadays.

As the name already implies, TELDEC (full name: TELDEC Telefunken-Decca Schallplatten GmbH) was a joint venture between the german company Telefunken and the Decca Record Co. Ltd., founded in 1950 and located in Hamburg, Germany.

In fact, TELDEC - like all DECCA-related companies - were bought up by Universal, including the distribution rights for the ABKCO-owned Stones material.

The notable difference is that TELDEC (like all DECCA-related companies in their respective territories) had the freedom to release their own compilations of Stones material - unlike Universal, who is nowadays strictly distributor only for ABKCO (and of course, Promotone-era Stones material).

Quote
retired_dog

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
Mathijs
Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.
Mathijs

The Russian Decca releases were counterfeits and not actually Decca releases, but fakes manufactured to take advantage of loose copyright control and the import market. The Teldec box set with the limited edition 45 was a legitimate release by Teldec - the German branch of Decca, but their source (for the 45 and other tracks) was a bootleg copy. They did not obtain permission from ABKCO but moved ahead with the release without proper authorization. It gave the set a shot in the arm and copies were quickly snatched up by London Records as an import here in the States, but despite the official release by a non-bootleg label, Teldec acted without authorization and the sets with the bootlegs were withdrawn from the market.

I think this is probably the same point Mathijs was making.

Yes, Mathijs probably meant it like this, but then he should have been more precise instead of mentioning TELDEC in the same vein as Swingin' Pig (which was a protection gap/public domain label) or the russian counterfeit label - and that's clearly not the case: TELDEC back then was the official distributor for the Stones pre-1971 material owned by ABKCO, just like Universal distributes ABKCO-material nowadays.

As the name already implies, TELDEC (full name: TELDEC Telefunken-Decca Schallplatten GmbH) was a joint venture between the german company Telefunken and the Decca Record Co. Ltd., founded in 1950 and located in Hamburg, Germany.

In fact, TELDEC - like all DECCA-related companies - were bought up by Universal, including the distribution rights for the ABKCO-owned Stones material.

The notable difference is that TELDEC (like all DECCA-related companies in their respective territories) had the freedom to release their own compilations of Stones material - unlike Universal, who is nowadays strictly distributor only for ABKCO (and of course, Promotone-era Stones material).

That last bit is not how I understand it -Teldec did not have freedom to release anything they liked, they simply did. Thus in fact, it was a legitimate label releasing unauthorized stuff, mostly on local markets. In other words, it was a legal label releasing bootlegs.

We had the same in the Netherlands, with the Telstar label, and a sub label which name I can not come up with after two days of thinking, 'Dino' comes up but I am not sure.

They specialized in Dutch schlager music, and were tied in with pirate radio stations. Their owner Johnnie Hoes was a bit of a pirate himself, pushing things over legal boundaries, and in fact as it turned out stealing millions from the artists he had under contract. They also released strange compilations of bands like Kinks and Stones, for which they had no legal clearance. These releases were in fact bootlegs by a legal label. Tracks on it were mostly the more obscure recordings. I remember one LP with Poison Ivy and Bye Bye Johnnie, wich in my memory were not available anywhere else in the Netherlands in the early to mid 80's. Another LP had interviews with Brian and Jagger, and were available in big stores like V&D and Bijenkorf.

Mathijs

Being what they are and only Distributors, can Universal reject tracks for any proposed new album?Can they have any (final) say on cover design and or track running order? I would assume not.
If it was stalemate, I assume the group would just move their product elsewhere and let their lawyers deal with any contract issues.
However they might balk at an updated CS Blues track. Now that would be interesting.

Atlantic rejected the original titles for "Star, Star" and "Short and Curlies." Likewise, the inclusion of "Hide Your Love" was because Ahmet Ertegun was a fan of Mick's tossed-off piano boogies. The addition of strings on "Angie" and "Winter" was the input of Atlantic. Several years later, Atlantic had to be talked into releasing the title track for SOME GIRLS. They rejected "Claudine" on the grounds it was litigious just as they had insisted on overdubbing/remixing to obscure a potentially litigious line in "Star, Star." Certainly not just a distributor.

In September 1985, CBS told The Stones and Steve Lillywhite they felt DIRTY WORK could be stronger and rejected the early mixes. Much overdubbing with sidemen followed. CBS also required Mark Marek to scratch out one of his doodles featuring the word "@#$%&" on the sleeve for DIRTY WORK. CBS required Mick hire a manager with a proven track record to guide his solo career resulting in Roger Davies' hiring for PRIMITIVE COOL and helping set up Mick's solo tour. Likewise, Q Prime was hired to oversee STEEL WHEELS to appease CBS.

Virgin Records were uncomfortable with the amount of profanity on VOODOO LOUNGE. Atlantic and Virgin both required clean versions be prepared for certain tracks to ensure airplay. CBS and Virgin (as well as Universal) contractually required the use of outside producers and had approval over who was hired. This extended to producers brought aboard for Additional Production. Mick's vision for GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY was much closer to what the ALFIE soundtrack became. He was directed by Virgin to aim for a more commercial release with many guest collaborators.

Universal has been very hands-on regarding the album-in-progress and the decision for BLUE AND LONESOME to become a standalone release when previous suggestions had been for a download-only release as a bonus when the new studio album was finished or a possible double album release or even limiting the selections to only 3 or 4 cover versions mixed with new material. Likewise Sony were responsible for paring FLASHPOINT down from the planned double album and Virgin demanded LIVE LICKS be expanded to a double album to include a Greatest Hits Live disc.

The Stones cannot just walk away from the deal in the result of a creative disagreement. Doing so would result in a two-year moratorium while the label sells down physical stock. It would also prove costly with the band having to return an advance and facing stiff penalties for defaulting. Atlantic, EMI, CBS, Sony, Virgin, and Universal license their product for a term and receive new product during that term. The band are required to deliver like professionals. Another example is that if the band provided CBS or Sony with a live album or a package of outtakes, there was a requirement of at least two label-approved singles that the band agree to fully promote with music videos. They couldn't simply fulfill their contractual obligations with minimal effort. The label wanted a presence on MTV and the radio to help move product. This was especially critical at a time when band relationships were at a low ebb.

<Certainly not just a distributor>

Today it seems to be Promotone/RS Records + Universal as distributor (and perhaps co-licencee).

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
retired_dog

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
Mathijs
Let me phrase of differently: the release is as official as the Russian Decca releases that flood the market.
Mathijs

The Russian Decca releases were counterfeits and not actually Decca releases, but fakes manufactured to take advantage of loose copyright control and the import market. The Teldec box set with the limited edition 45 was a legitimate release by Teldec - the German branch of Decca, but their source (for the 45 and other tracks) was a bootleg copy. They did not obtain permission from ABKCO but moved ahead with the release without proper authorization. It gave the set a shot in the arm and copies were quickly snatched up by London Records as an import here in the States, but despite the official release by a non-bootleg label, Teldec acted without authorization and the sets with the bootlegs were withdrawn from the market.

I think this is probably the same point Mathijs was making.

Yes, Mathijs probably meant it like this, but then he should have been more precise instead of mentioning TELDEC in the same vein as Swingin' Pig (which was a protection gap/public domain label) or the russian counterfeit label - and that's clearly not the case: TELDEC back then was the official distributor for the Stones pre-1971 material owned by ABKCO, just like Universal distributes ABKCO-material nowadays.

As the name already implies, TELDEC (full name: TELDEC Telefunken-Decca Schallplatten GmbH) was a joint venture between the german company Telefunken and the Decca Record Co. Ltd., founded in 1950 and located in Hamburg, Germany.

In fact, TELDEC - like all DECCA-related companies - were bought up by Universal, including the distribution rights for the ABKCO-owned Stones material.

The notable difference is that TELDEC (like all DECCA-related companies in their respective territories) had the freedom to release their own compilations of Stones material - unlike Universal, who is nowadays strictly distributor only for ABKCO (and of course, Promotone-era Stones material).

That last bit is not how I understand it -Teldec did not have freedom to release anything they liked, they simply did. Thus in fact, it was a legitimate label releasing unauthorized stuff, mostly on local markets. In other words, it was a legal label releasing bootlegs.

We had the same in the Netherlands, with the Telstar label, and a sub label which name I can not come up with after two days of thinking, 'Dino' comes up but I am not sure.

They specialized in Dutch schlager music, and were tied in with pirate radio stations. Their owner Johnnie Hoes was a bit of a pirate himself, pushing things over legal boundaries, and in fact as it turned out stealing millions from the artists he had under contract. They also released strange compilations of bands like Kinks and Stones, for which they had no legal clearance. These releases were in fact bootlegs by a legal label. Tracks on it were mostly the more obscure recordings. I remember one LP with Poison Ivy and Bye Bye Johnnie, wich in my memory were not available anywhere else in the Netherlands in the early to mid 80's. Another LP had interviews with Brian and Jagger, and were available in big stores like V&D and Bijenkorf.

Mathijs

I would not call an "unauthorized compilation" from a company who legally distributes Stones material a "bootleg" which by the common definition is an unauthorized recording, manufactured and distributed by companies that have absolutely no legal connection to the artist and the artist's record company, and don't pay any artist and mechanical royalties or license fees to the artist and his legal record company and the composers of the actual songs.

"The Rest of The Best"-Box by TELDEC is no different than other compilations from various DECCA or DECCA-related companies all over the world, like "Stone Age", "No Stone Unturned", "Rock'n'Rolling Stones", "Gimme Shelter", "Milestones", "Slow Rollers", "Collector's Only" and other countless compilations from all over the world - if all these were "bootlegs" in the common sense of the word they would not have seen many years of distribution, often worldwide. And I'm sure the Stones gladly accepted the extra income they generated...

For many years it indeed looked like DECCA and their worldwide network of companies were indeed free to release compilations of the "DECCA-era" pre-1971 material, under the condition that ONLY PREVIOUSLY RELEASED MATERIAL could be included.

It was indeed Wolfgang Michels who compiled "The Rest Of The Best"-Box for TELDEC who tried to push the boundaries a bit further to or over the limit by including two previously unreleased tracks, "CS Blues" and, let's not forget this one, the so-called "Tell Me II", which has nothing to do with the Jagger/Richards composition "Tell Me" from their first album, but is in fact the well-known Chess outtake "Tell Me Baby" aka "How Many Times", the Big Bill Broonzy composition (like "CS Blues" also notably dubbed from a vinyl bootleg).

Interestingly enough, only one previously unreleased composition was affected by the court injunction from TELDEC's parent company DECCA London - "CS Blues" on the separate bonus single, while "Tell Me II" remained untouched and stayed there until the box set's final withdrawal years later.

And that's despite the fact that "CS Blues" reportedly was given to DECCA as a contractual filler, so in theory the Stones agreed its release. It was only DECCA who considered the track "unsuitable for release" in the early 70s, but why they reacted so strong after more than a decade still remains a mystery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-19 21:56 by retired_dog.

When was Memphis Tennessee and Da Doo Ron Ron released prior to The Rest Of The Best?

Quote
DandelionPowderman
When was Memphis Tennessee and Da Doo Ron Ron released prior to The Rest Of The Best?

On "Andrew Oldham Orchestra And Chorus – 16 Hip Hits", first released in 1964...