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Mathijs

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FP

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exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!

Taylor's original guitar part is the alternate picked sus chords, with a high pitched trebly tone. It sure does sound like a Telecaster. Taylor would play this part often on the 1972 tour. This part was completely removed from the released version, where Keith added Berry style boogie rhythm, and a second open G guitar with embellishments, acoustic guitar and the guitar playing the main riff going into the chorus. The overdubs by Richards clash with Taylor's part in places and most likely the reason why it was removed.

Richard's main guitar used could be anything basically. A black SG didn't exist in the 1960's but Richards could have used Taylor's SG. If they used their own stuff Richard's could have used his Ampeg Dan Armstrong or LP Custom as these were ready for open G. The amps were rented, and so could the guitars. The pictures of Taylor's Tele show a Tele I have never seen elsewhere with the Stones. To me, the Dan Armstrong is the most likely contender due to its raspy sound.

Also for the overdubs, Richards really seemed to favor the Dan Armstrong over anything else in 1969 - 1972, and the sound of the overdubbed guitars is very reminiscent of that guitar to me.

Mathijs

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FP

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TravelinMan

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FP

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exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!

Try using this: web.archive.org and searching micktaylor.net

I can't remember if the Gimme Shelter doc version is the one from Hot Rocks accidental inclusion.

Because you have that version with the obvious Richards solo

The arpeggio version with the Taylor solo

Final version with B. Keys solo

What am I missing?

Hey mate!
Cool I will check it out.

Along with those versions there was a version listed as Take 1 that has two rhythm guitars, Keith licks and then some buried solos over the outro and the one from Alternate Takes & Demos [1968/1969] album with different Keith guitar 2 rhythm part over intro riff.

Also not sure if the backing for the Top Of The Pops show was a rerecording or just the backing track of the single?

Oh and finally the Clapton version! Apparently EC plays the slide, not sure who plays the guitar solo though? Has a similar tone and feel to Taylor's removed solo on previous mix so possibly him?

video: [www.youtube.com]

Also maybe wrong but wasn't the single mixed differently to the album version?

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stevecardi


I agree, Mathijs. Comparing the studio version of “Brown Sugar” with the live one from Altamont is telling. That’s the one live version I’ve ever heard where Keith came closest to nailing his tone from the studio version. And Keith played his backup (early production version) of the DA at that show for “Brown Sugar.”

So yes, my guess is that Keith’s main guitar on “Brown Sugar” is the Dan Armstrong (or, more likely, the Dan Armstrong prototype), with the black 1958 Les Paul Custom and Mick Taylor’s 1963/64 SG Standard used for overdubs.

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TravelinMan

Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.

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Mathijs

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stevecardi

Mathijs

I agree, Mathijs. Comparing the studio version of “Brown Sugar” with the live one from Altamont is telling. That’s the one live version I’ve ever heard where Keith came closest to nailing his tone from the studio version. And Keith played his backup (early production version) of the DA at that show for “Brown Sugar.”

So yes, my guess is that Keith’s main guitar on “Brown Sugar” is the Dan Armstrong (or, more likely, the Dan Armstrong prototype), with the black 1958 Les Paul Custom and Mick Taylor’s 1963/64 SG Standard used for overdubs.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.

Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.

Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.

Mathijs

It sounds like a pretty basic Berry rhythm lower in the mix than the other electric. Nothing profound, nothing unique.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.

Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.

Mathijs

It sounds like a pretty basic Berry rhythm lower in the mix than the other electric. Nothing profound, nothing unique.

Listen again. The timing and phrasing of the Berry boogie rhythm is fantastic -it gives the push and pull to the song, it what makes it swing. The open G guitar is dominant, and straightforward, while the Berry rhythm adds air to it. This rhythm is what gives the track its unique swing feel, it's what you make do the rooster. And that's typical for Keith -a million people play better guitar than him, but nobody can make it swing and roll so hard.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.

Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.

Mathijs

It sounds like a pretty basic Berry rhythm lower in the mix than the other electric. Nothing profound, nothing unique.

Listen again. The timing and phrasing of the Berry boogie rhythm is fantastic -it gives the push and pull to the song, it what makes it swing. The open G guitar is dominant, and straightforward, while the Berry rhythm adds air to it. This rhythm is what gives the track its unique swing feel, it's what you make do the rooster. And that's typical for Keith -a million people play better guitar than him, but nobody can make it swing and roll so hard.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.

This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.

Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.

Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.

This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.

Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.

Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.

Actually I am still skeptical about Taylor on Bitch..I will not dispute that it is him, but is SO unlike anything Taylor has ever done or sounded before or after that it still bogles me.

About Taylor's sound on Ya Ya's -it's easy to fatten up a sound, or make it more distorted in post-production. You simply run the compressor/limiter harder, or you route the signal back to a small amp and re-record it.

It is my understanding that this is one (of the many) reasons the Brussels Affair boot sounds so good -they made both guitars sound more 'modern' by adding compression and gain in post production. At least to me it would explain why the guitars on the boot so sound much different than the often murky guitar sound of other 1973 boots.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan
Btw, guitar players:

Do you play Berry rhythms with strictly down strokes or do you alternate up and down strokes. Interesting results the second way, which isn’t usually the way “taught”.

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Mathijs

.. And that's typical for Keith- a million people play better guitar than him , but nobody can make it swing and roll so hard.

Mathijs

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JakeA
I found instrumental version where you can hear quite well how the guitars are
played. Most of people listen just Keith`s main guitar ,but other side of mix is really a hidden pearl. 0:30-0:41 you can hear whats really happening there.
Keith´s overdub and boogie guitar are really well done, and how good they fit together. I don´t mind who plays boogie guitar but it sounds more like Taylor to me. Keith has more attack ,and his sound is sharp. Boogie guitar is played smoother and whith a thicker sound.

Another intresting case is acoustic guitar. I read that guitar has Nashville strings. Maybe same guitar that Taylor played on Wild Horses?

Brown sugar instrumental:

[www.youtube.com]

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crholmstrom
Anyone a fan of Dylan's cover of BS that he was doing early in the century? I enjoyed it at the time. It does make me sad that we'll probably never hear the Stones do it live again.

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NashvilleBlues

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crholmstrom
Anyone a fan of Dylan's cover of BS that he was doing early in the century? I enjoyed it at the time. It does make me sad that we'll probably never hear the Stones do it live again.

Not bad. Pretty true to the original. Would've been cool if he remade it in his own style (like Devo covering Satisfaction).

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Doxa

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NashvilleBlues

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crholmstrom
Anyone a fan of Dylan's cover of BS that he was doing early in the century? I enjoyed it at the time. It does make me sad that we'll probably never hear the Stones do it live again.

Not bad. Pretty true to the original. Would've been cool if he remade it in his own style (like Devo covering Satisfaction).

Well, I think he remade it by pretty much in his own style if we listen his vocals... Pure Dylan interpretation by recomposing the melody and having his own sense of timing.. (But yeah, the band plays it pretty much according to the original).

- Doxa

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Taylor1
How is Taylor's rhythm guitaron Live With Me and on Star Star any different than all the guitars on Brown Sugar. And the great solo on the outro to Star Star which is buried in thecrappy mix for which Giles Martin did nothing to improve sounds like Keith or Taylor. How many people who were around in 1968 when Beggar's Banquet came out thought the slide guitars on Jigsaw Puzzle and Salt of the Earth must be Brian because Keith had never played slide before and Brian had been the slide guitarist in the band were suprised to find out later it was all Keithand Brian only played guitar on No Expectations.