hard to judge a book by its cover, wait for the release and lyrics...
to be honest, I'm not sure if this accordion thing is gonna work. I mean, from a historical point of view, Desire was cool with that lady, but I'm not sure if I love it.

A dark album? Something like Johnny Cash's final ones? Great music that was (is). Saw Dylan the first and only time live in 2005 and was quite disappointed as most of the songs sounded/were arranged in a similar way.

it might be time for a dylan dog - it's been almost 2 solid decades now (under the red sky). but, i don't think bob bothers writing/recording unless he really has something interesting to say...didn't used to be the case, especially during his lost decade of the 80's...

i don't sense anything smug about any of these lines, btw....bob "name-dropping"? what? bob's a name that others drop....

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otonneau
- "I'm listening to Billy Joe Shaver/And I'm reading James Joyce/Some people tell me I got the blood of the land in my voice,"

That's got to be the year's most pompous, self-satisfied sentence. Almost as bad as "She opened a book of poem... written by an Italian poet of the 13th century" and "your loyalty is not to me but to the stars above". Dear, dear. That's what Dylan lost way back in 67 in his motorbike accident: his sense of humour and self mockery. The old croaking prophet should lighten up a bit about his glorious self. That been said, since he has devoted followers...

Aah, it must feel great and superior, by taking few sentences out of their context, to mock Bob Dylan's skills as a lyricist. You must feel "self-satisfied" now.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-04 22:00 by Doxa.

Aaah Doxa what a silly sophism...

Great news....I heard it here first, Gazza. Thanks.

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otonneau
Aaah Doxa what a silly sophism...

What is a "sophism"?

- Doxa

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otonneau
Saying "I'm reading James Joyce" is snobbish name-dropping, which I find annoying anywhere.

Hm, so what exactly do you tell other people when you're reading James Joyce except "I'm reading James Joyce"?
I don't see anything snobbish about saying that you're reading James Joyce.

Well, back to the good news: apart from the new album which is of course the best news we could get by far, there will also be at least four original recordings remastered and published in late march: The Basement Tapes, New Morning, Before the Flood and Dylan & The Dead.

Moreover there are rumours about a re-issue of Blood On The Tracks as a two disc set with the album as we know it as well as the complete New York sessions tracks.

And then the new album... bad times for the economy, splendid times for Dylan fans.

i think empire burlesque is/was supposed to be re-issued as well. a shame that the sacd market crapped out - i was hoping the rest of the dylan catalogue would get the sacd treatment....

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MacPhisto

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otonneau
Saying "I'm reading James Joyce" is snobbish name-dropping, which I find annoying anywhere.

Hm, so what exactly do you tell other people when you're reading James Joyce except "I'm reading James Joyce"?
I don't see anything snobbish about saying that you're reading James Joyce.

.

That's true. I can almost hear Dylan thinking "I am not supposed to mention Joyce because he is too obvious and all the smart people won't like it. Well, fvck 'em, I say what I feel like just to annoy them, once again".

Honestly, I can see the reference to Joyce as the reference to Neil Young in "Highlands". Dylan makes no distinctions with the people he decides to talk about or mention if that suits the story. Perhaps he knows that J. Joyce is a taboo and any lesser writer - who has a reputation to take care of - would NOT dare to do it, but he does. That's my Bob.

- Doxa

I'm not sure when it happened, but in 2009 I much prefer a new release from Dylan than my beloved Stones. No one has aged as a songwriter nearly as well as Dylan, maybe he was too far ahead to begin with.

If someone calls me up and asks me what I'm doing and it happens that i'm reading Joyce, i'll answer "I'm reading James Joyce".

But to put a name in a song is not a means of informing someone of what you're doing, for Christ's sake. Dylan, at the time when he's writing this, is not reading James Joyce. To insert a name in a song is an element in building its athmosphere, it becomes part of a network of references. And James Joyce is, like it or not, a highbrow reference. But that is not even really the problem. It's just a dead name-dropping because it contributes nothing except for our awe that Bob is reading difficult books. Comparison: "Shakespeare is down the alley with his pointed shoes and his bells" contributes to the imagery of the song in a rich way, and I would never consider this name-dropping. Something similar with the name of Joyce would have been creative. "I'm reading james Joyce" is just a boring statement of cultural status.

Well I'll stop there. Who cares? i'm writing an article on Wittgenstein so I'd better get to work. So there! And I know you guys would loose an arm rather than see a chink in Dylan's armour, beautiful loyalty.

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otonneau
"I'm reading james Joyce" is just a boring statement of cultural status.

.

Much better to be 'thinkin' about Alicia Keyes',would have been much more down to earth, eh...

The MEZ is very excited as I am a Dylan fanatic! MEZ

>Honestly, I can see the reference to Joyce as the reference to Neil Young in "Highlands". Dylan makes no distinctions with the people he decides to talk about or mention if that suits the story.


Or Erica Jong for that matter. There's an abundance of humour on latter-day Dylan -- sounds like otonneau is the one that's lost a sense of humour.

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otonneau
If someone calls me up and asks me what I'm doing and it happens that i'm reading Joyce, i'll answer "I'm reading James Joyce".

But to put a name in a song is not a means of informing someone of what you're doing, for Christ's sake. Dylan, at the time when he's writing this, is not reading James Joyce. To insert a name in a song is an element in building its athmosphere, it becomes part of a network of references. And James Joyce is, like it or not, a highbrow reference. But that is not even really the problem. It's just a dead name-dropping because it contributes nothing except for our awe that Bob is reading difficult books. Comparison: "Shakespeare is down the alley with his pointed shoes and his bells" contributes to the imagery of the song in a rich way, and I would never consider this name-dropping. Something similar with the name of Joyce would have been creative. "I'm reading james Joyce" is just a boring statement of cultural status.

Well I'll stop there. Who cares? i'm writing an article on Wittgenstein so I'd better get to work. So there! And I know you guys would loose an arm rather than see a chink in Dylan's armour, beautiful loyalty.

nothing could be further from the truth. dylan has had plenty of lows - but your argument here is about as fallow as i can imagine....it's probably just one of those "stream of consciousness" lyrics...in other words, "joycean," for which dylan is so adept....

i'm going

I dont see whats so pretentious about saying you're doing something in a song when at the time of writing it, you clearly aren't. That would somehow limit the scope of any lyric written in the first person, wouldnt it.

Unless you actually believe that for example Lou Reed REALLY was standing on the corner of Lexington and 125th Street when he wrote 'Waiting For The Man' ?

Reading James Joyce is a "boring statement of cultural status"...???? Wow that is stretching it. Dylan obviously is a sponge of culture, and loves to read good writers. Joyce was an incredible author, and that's coming from a common beer swilling rock adicted miscreant like me!

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otonneau
If someone calls me up and asks me what I'm doing and it happens that i'm reading Joyce, i'll answer "I'm reading James Joyce".

But to put a name in a song is not a means of informing someone of what you're doing, for Christ's sake. Dylan, at the time when he's writing this, is not reading James Joyce. To insert a name in a song is an element in building its athmosphere, it becomes part of a network of references. And James Joyce is, like it or not, a highbrow reference. But that is not even really the problem. It's just a dead name-dropping because it contributes nothing except for our awe that Bob is reading difficult books. Comparison: "Shakespeare is down the alley with his pointed shoes and his bells" contributes to the imagery of the song in a rich way, and I would never consider this name-dropping. Something similar with the name of Joyce would have been creative. "I'm reading james Joyce" is just a boring statement of cultural status.

Well I'll stop there. Who cares? i'm writing an article on Wittgenstein so I'd better get to work. So there! And I know you guys would loose an arm rather than see a chink in Dylan's armour, beautiful loyalty.

i appreciate your distinctions and impressions very much; great posts imo...good back and forth too....your vry good example with 'shakespeares he's in the alley..." etc..rings true to me personally...lovely and cogent criticism imo; ty

...did feel that little tinge of 'uhhhhhh' when i read that first new line too actually...
that being said am personally a very big fan of current dylan...and he does have the blood of the land in his voice, always did, but he does pose at as a kind of conceit according to my read too.........
LOVED modern times
LOVED love and theft...
VERY VERY excited about the new album!!!!
bob has gone for the odd convenient rhyme at times; bits of awkwardness amongst the almost biblical proportion of his talent and what he has done to pop and folk and rock music for all time...
i've heard klunkers from the writers i admire most from time to time; stones, kinks, bobster,beatboys...i have very very high hopes for this album and am excited about it...

If I were looking over Bob's shoulder when he wrote that line about reading James Joyce, I'd have suggested that he change it to "I'm reading Jimmy Joyce."

amazing to think one might know precisely what a metaphor like "blood of the land" means, without any of the context from the rest of the song. As far as I know, land doesn't actually bleed, so the phrase is up for interpretation.

and Joyce is hardly an emblem of the cultural elite anymore, like some kind of trendy name. That might have been true in the 1920s. In the contemporary English-speaking world, even high school kids know his name as the most acclaimed 20th-century writer.

all this said, I might not like the song or the album, but I'll be excited to hear it.

Well said, cc.

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otonneau
If someone calls me up and asks me what I'm doing and it happens that i'm reading


Well I'll stop there. Who cares? i'm writing an article on Wittgenstein so I'd better get to work. So there! And I know you guys would loose an arm rather than see a chink in Dylan's armour, beautiful loyalty.

Quite an arrogant style to state that "we'll stop here. Who cares?" after one has come to the discussion with provocative claims, and got some people annoyed and heated. And it shows one's respectful attitude to stop the paragraph by making fun of the other participiants of the discussion. I guess you are so much smarter than the rest of us. See you in Kirchberg.

- Doxa

Wow! Just to clarify and pacify:
- Gazza: I never said that one should only write about what one is doing. On the contrary, I mean that it doesn't matter what one is doing; that "I'm reading Joyce" must be understood as an element in the song's athmosphere, not as a report on what Dylan is doing.

- And the discussion helped me clarify my own thoughts: although I do think Joyce is a highbrow (although now rather banal, as has been pointed out) reference, my problem is really with how flat and pointless the reference is in that sentence.

- Of course I may be wrong with regards to the complete lyrics. But I doubt so - Dylan's later work never exhibits self-irony and I'm be very surprised if it started now. But who knows?

- Doxa: I didn't say "we'll stop there" but "well I 'll strop there". Meaning by this that I did not want to start a sophisticated discussion arguing why I find the sentence crap, whereas you guys who indeed are Dylan devotees don't see it as such. It's not really making fun of you guys, although I do think that the full support allows, if you don't mind, for a gentle tease.

I do think that Dylan's late lyrics are extremely weak with regards to his earlier one: compare extraordinary titles such as "It's alright Ma (I'm only bleeding)" with "Not dark yet". The latter could be some sort of apocalyptic statement from U2 or Springsteen or anyone who I have never regarded as great lyricists; the former, only Dylan could write. And I do think that the Dylan aura is what grants an added value to these otherwise banal and often pompous statements. And now I WILL stop there as my intention was not to be so polemical in the first place. Cheers to all!

Oh and I add - sorry for the silly attempt at covering all bases - a word on "stream of consciousness".

Stream of consciousness is an attempt to short-cut preformated descriptive statements: rather than describe, one expresses what goes on in his mind.

Now by definition, reflexive statements can hardly belong to a "stream of consciousness". "James Joyce delights me" or "F*ck James Joyce" could go through someone's consciousness: but I wonder who finds himself thinking "woaw, I'm reading James Joyce". That sort of reflexive statement is a description, not an expression of the self. So it seems intenable to argue that Dylan wrote this in a stream of consciousness. Anyway, just my two cents worth on literary terms.

Excellent news...thanks for the heads up.

Instead of saying "I'm reading James Joyce" (which I find brilliant by the way), maybe he could have said "I'm reading Dr. Seuss"...?
More irony and mystery there....

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otonneau
Oh and I add - sorry for the silly attempt at covering all bases - a word on "stream of consciousness".

Stream of consciousness is an attempt to short-cut preformated descriptive statements: rather than describe, one expresses what goes on in his mind.

ummm...actually, you totally missed the point....you are very good at that, i might add.

Well T&A, I don't think I missed the point. And if you open Joyce, for instance - surely the master of Stream of consciousness - you will see that the statements contained therein have odd syntax, associative vocabulary, and are characteristically not self-descriptive in the way "I'm reading James Joyce" is.

So perhaps you used the expression stream of consciousness in another sense, different from (I think) its standard meaning, and in reference to something different than what Joyce does? Well that's your right of course, but then I hope I can be forgiven for missing the point - I cannot second guess what you mean when you use standard terminology in your own particular way!

Excellent news! That is an album I am surely going to buy on the day one. If only Bob would come to introduce it...hopefully the next year.