WOW, what a book !!! Just came a few hours ago from Amazon so have not read all of it yet but so far I have learned one thing for sure, The Stones "Soap Opera" was/is much bigger than ever imagined (and I imagined it was huge). Just a few highlights so far -

MICHAEL COHL - ....Believe it or not, The Stones hired someone to SELL tickets to FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS....as part of a deal with MC, there was absolutely NO FREEBIES on this tour (1989), even the Stone's wives had to pay for seats (any seat that had a public price on it). German spotted Patti Hansen buying tickets for her sisters and KARIS JAGGER - Mick's oldest daughter (with Marsha Hunt) buying tickets for her college buddies (page 188)

KEITH RICHARDS - comes across as a genuine guy but a bit slow on keeping promises...for example, BILL GERMAN had to wait for months and months and months and ask 100's of times to get one KR interview for his BEGGARS BANQUET news letter. This guy - BG - has more patience and persistence than I've ever seen in anybody and Keith really does mean what he says AT THE TIME.... he just seems to forget (but once reminded, he'll get it done.... sooner or later)

MICK JAGGER - always my favorite Stone because of his great voice/singing style, writing, and performing but man, I do not think I would want to ever hang with him. This guy is very emotionally complicated and RUTHLESS. On one hand you need a JAGGER TYPE to make your band last as long as The Stones have but on the other hand, IT AIN'T PRETTY !!! One of the uglier moments in the Jagger archieves is mentioned on page 174 when Mick tells long time Stones concert promoter Bill Graham that he's out and Cohl is in for 1989's STEEL WHEELS Tour - GRAHAM had appealed directly to Mick and reminded him of the blood, sweat, and tears he'd shed for the band since promoting them from 1972 on (I'd quickly spoken to him - or vis versa - when he was working the floor at the Forum in LA for the early 72 show. We had 6th row and he was hands on - a very nice man to us teenage punks). Anyway, GRAHAM asks Mick if his long time loyalty didn't count for something and Mick replied,"I'm only doing this tour for one reason Bill.... the money and the numbers will be better with Cohl" Cold, but that's business I guess.... GRAHAM got so depressed that he ended up on Prozac and in therapy. Died in a Helicopter crash a few years later....... (that had NOTHING to do with The Stones/Mick of course)

CHARLIE WATTS - Who?

MICK TAYLOR - Interviewed him once, clears up why he left the band....

ERIC CLAPTON - some strange behavior towards GERMAN, you gotta read it

BILL GERMAN - always thought he was a nice, pretty normal guy....nothing has changed. Can't tell how he feels about Jagger (a bit pissed maybe) but things seem A-OK with Woody and Keith. Back to reading, YOU MUST GET THIS !!! Books like this don't come along very often. Helter

PS. Amazon.com has it in stock, always with a big discount....

...you've got me salivating already!

I'm ordering a copy right now.

Quote
HelterSkelter

CHARLIE WATTS - Who?

....

Is there anything about Cha's mid-80's drug problems? I mean, was it so hush-hush that even some Stones insiders didn't know about it?

(Sorry, I'm ordering my copy, but eager to know things...)

- Doxa

Doxa, have "Read and Flipped" a lot so far but not ONE WORD about Charlie yet (But then again, German's BEGGAR'S BANQUET news letter was very low on Charlie news so nothing new)... Yeah, Great Book, worth a rush/air mail shipment

Mick and Keith have been described as emotionally retarded on many previous occasions, so the descriptions above should come as no suprise.
The rationale or defence is that you wouldn't survive "at the top" for so long in the biz, unless you were.
I half buy into that.
They showed their ruthlesness as long ago as 1965, firing Easton and hiring you know who. Somethings never change.
No mention of the other Bill??

I hear German says he wrote this book as a "love letter to Keith".
I suspect Keith's not too happy with this "letter".
There are things in the book that may be true, but still would hurt some people deeply.
Keith's famous for his loyalty to his friends. He expects the same kind of loyalty from his friends. I doubt that Keith, after having read the book (if he will) will count German among his friends.
But that doesn't mean this isn't interresting reading...

Not yet, GERMAN was always about RONNIE and KEITH first, JAGGER second, and after that ???? (also very NYC centered - they have Jagger's upper West Side Address in the book and it's true as it was always said, "Just a Stone's throw away from Lennon's place".... probably pretty uncomfortable in the early 80's) Wyman and Charlie never seemed to go for that NYC decade plus lifestyle (Studio 54/Miss You/Shattered/Dance) that the other 3 did....

HelterSkelter, i have a little insight into the whole bill graham issue .during the 1981-1982 world tour mick caught bill with his hand in the till stuffing his pockets with the stones dineros and that was that .thats how that scum piece of crap michael cohl came along .i blame cohl/jagger for these high ticket prices .

Quote:

One of the uglier moments in the Jagger archieves is mentioned on page 174 when Mick tells long time Stones concert promoter Bill Graham that he's out and Cohl is in for 1989's STEEL WHEELS Tour - GRAHAM had appealed directly to Mick and reminded him of the blood, sweat, and tears he'd shed for the band since promoting them from 1972 on (I'd quickly spoken to him - or vis versa - when he was working the floor at the Forum in LA for the early 72 show. We had 6th row and he was hands on - a very nice man to us teenage punks). Anyway, GRAHAM asks Mick if his long time loyalty didn't count for something and Mick replied,"I'm only doing this tour for one reason Bill.... the money and the numbers will be better with Cohl" Cold, but that's business I guess.... GRAHAM got so depressed that he ended up on Prozac and in therapy. Died in a Helicopter crash a few years later....... (that had NOTHING to do with The Stones/Mick of course)

That's right, it did have NOTHING to do with the Stones!!
Bill Graham was a business man and should be able to cope with losing a contract.
Is he really trying to say that the Stones are responsible for Graham being on Prozac and in Therapy? What a pile of crap!!!!

This guy sounds like just another bitter journalist trying to bitch about the Stones because it's oh, so easy!

YAWN!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-26 15:12 by vudicus.

A lot of bands use a ticket service. The service is well run and the prices are the same for the general public. In Puerto Rico we were lucky enough to have 1st row. This was the exception not the rule. In london "entourage" passes had a section to the left of the stage. You still needed tickets.

Fan survives life with Rolling Stones
Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:10pm EST

By Dean Goodman

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Many music fans dream about meeting their heroes. Rolling Stones fanzine writer Bill German accomplished that feat when he was 17, and became part of the band's inner circle during the 1980s, deftly negotiating the Byzantine layers of political bureaucracy that cushion the British rock icons.

Now 46, the New York native offers a rare inside look at the band's drug-fueled machinations in "Under Their Thumb -- How a Nice Boy from Brooklyn Got Mixed Up with The Rolling Stones (and Lived to tell About It)."

German examines a strange period in the Stones' history, including a bitter feud between Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, and the band's transformation into a corporate touring machine.

"Some people wind up leaving the Stones circle in caskets or handcuffs because they think that they can keep up with them on a nightly basis," he told Reuters in a recent interview.

German walked away from the band, but not before his physical and mental health suffered to the point where he seriously considered committing suicide at a show.

Q: As far as I can tell you're the only Stones fan who's crossed to the other side and become part of the inner circle.

A: "Right! There may have been other fans who've gotten to hang out with then from time to time, obviously. But there was usually sex or drugs or celebrity involved ... You need to bring something to the table to make them want to hang out with you. Amazingly, my thing was this amateur little fanzine."

Q: But you must have been walking on tiptoes: One false move and they would toss you?

A: "Absolutely. To be in a room with (Jagger and Richards) at the same time, from '85 to early '89, it was pretty tense. You knew that you just had to be a fly on the wall. You could not try to broker some kind of ceasefire between them. You couldn't even make a joke in the room, because who the hell are you? Especially me. I was just a kid in my 20s."

Q: The Stones gave you unprecedented access. Do you worry about breaking confidences and trust with this book?

A: "The things I talk about -- drugs -- where's the surprise there? I'm just telling you a different side of the Stones but I think for the most part it's the nicer side of the Stones that people don't know."

Q: Mick Jagger comes across as distant and hard to deal with.

A: "Mick is a very complex character in general as well as in this book. Listen, he did lots of nice things for me too, obviously. I think on both sides -- the nice things that he did and the not-so-nice things that he did -- were mostly motivated by business. which isn't to say that he might not be a nice person in his personal life, that he might not have liked me on some level. I'm sure he did. I was an innocent kid."

Q: You talk about this love/hate relationship with Stones fans. Did that impinge upon your enjoyment of the Stones life?

A: "I had an entire chapter just about the fans, and my editor asked me to cut it out and I did. There were some really hardcore people, one guy I know who really did develop a heroin addiction because he loved Keith so much, just all kinds of crazy people out there."

Q: You do go into explicit details about the Stones almost driving you to suicide. Did you have qualms about putting that in the book?

A: "I felt a little weird; mostly for my parents ... I did use humor to broach that subject. That was the only way I could do it. Even when I was absolutely miserable I did maintain my sense of humor which I think is something that helped me survive the Stones and all this. One of the many reasons I got out is because so many people around the Stones do not have that sense of humor. They take it so seriously. Even at a young age I knew we're not curing cancer here."

Q: As a Stones expert, how do you see the Stones' future?

A: "I honestly think they can go on forever and ever. Really, why not? Like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf. I don't see any problem with them playing until they drop. And they should."

(Editing by Patricia Reaney)

Looking forward to reading it. Thanks, Helter.

Ha ha. They've dropped alright. No one ever brings up ability.

So this dude wanted to kill himself? That seems like a very odd thing to consider. Mick has never apologised for why he does things so it's no big deal to me that Bill Graham got canned - it's just business. Loyalty means nothing in business. He probably had an old way of thinking anyway and it was time to get inventive.

Cohl is still an ass though. Charging family members for tickets. That is so wrong and bad. No couth. I'm glad I've never spent a lot of money seeing the Stones. This just reconfirms their greed and need for more money and that it really is about the money. Hence why they probably don't play very good anymore - too busy countin' them dollar signs every time they hit (or don't) the strings. I wonder if Keith has incentives in his contract - hit x-amount of bad notes you receive $1 million.

"i have a little insight into the whole bill graham issue .during the 1981-1982 world tour mick caught bill with his hand in the till stuffing his pockets with the stones dineros"

FULL story, please...!

I got the book yesterday. i skimmed through it last night, the one thing that struck me is how much he seems to hate Jane Rose.

"Cohl is still an ass though. Charging family members for tickets"

Do you think he came up with this idea alone (no), or did he obey Jagger's order (yes)?

Having family purchase their own tix is the proper thing. They are wealthy enough,it cuts down on the calls from relatives/friends that they hadn't
heard from since the last tour, and it makes accounting a lot easier. Tom Parker did the same thing as does other successful tour management agencies.

I've been in & out of the business for 20+ years and trust me, it works much better that way.

C
Austin, TX

Quote
CindyC
I got the book yesterday. i skimmed through it last night, the one thing that struck me is how much he seems to hate Jane Rose.

Not having read the book (yet)....I'm guessing that it's because she
was sort of on the frontlines for Keith. This kid (German) was pestering
Keith for interviews 100's of times....and she had to protect keith.
Even though Keith & Bill became buddies on a some level..I'm sure there were
many days when Keith didn't give a sh*t.

re: Mick being ruthless.....
Just speculating (again) but when one becomes famous at an early age
and lives in a weird bubble of stardom etc... the person (in this case Mick)
probably becomes a bit of a social misfit. Probably came off as cold & ruthless
but simply might have been clueless (& tactless) as to how to handle things
differently.

re: this quote from BG: "One of the many reasons I got out is because so many people around the Stones do not have that sense of humor. They take it so seriously. Even at a young age I knew we're not curing cancer here."

I absolutely believe that the Stones take their music seriously etc... but
based on interviews I've heard, I never got the feeling that that Stones themselves
thought they were "curing cancer". I agree with german that the people around
the Stones treat it way more seriously. Obviously they are caring for and protecting
a VERY valuable commodity - their employer - the Stones.


IORR............but I like it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-26 18:11 by sweet neo con.

does this book come with hair curlers or are those sold separately?

by the way Helter....i'm glad you started another UNDER THEIR THUMB thread as the
first one got VERY sidetracked.


IORR............but I like it!

Quote
sweet neo con

Quote
CindyC
I got the book yesterday. i skimmed through it last night, the one thing that struck me is how much he seems to hate Jane Rose.

Not having read the book (yet)....I'm guessing that it's because she
was sort of on the frontlines for Keith. This kid (German) was pestering
Keith for interviews 100's of times....and she had to protect keith.
Even though Keith & Bill became buddies on a some level..I'm sure there were
many days when Keith didn't give a sh*t.

now THATS funny how you turn things around to have Keith in a good light....

if BG was "pestering Keith for interviews 100s of times" (I understand it was not for numerous interviews but just ONE) he had to do it because Keith obviously was unreliable and did not keep his promise to do it. in case Keith just didnt give a shit to waste an hour to do an interview he should just have told BG and end of story. why does he need Jane Rose to "protect him"? poor guy.

Helter, I've got the book now, and have the impression
that Bill and Charlie rarely spoke. He did refer to Charlie's
drug habit once, I think, during the time in the 80's when the
band was at odds. Correct me if I'm wrong, I may have dreamt it.

Keeping it simple, my review is that the book is a very, very good read.
It's for people who want to know more about how a fan who wrote a newsletter
about the doings of The Rolling Stones found himself hanging out with the
band, mainly with Ronnie and Keith.
One of a kind.


Fans may have their quibbles with how Bill German sees things, and
how he writes about those involved, of course.

I love the story of how Charlie Watts walked out of the David Letterman show right before it aired. It was so cool - Charlie is AWESOME!

Wasn't looking too good, but I was feeling real well.

Quote
alimente

Quote
sweet neo con

Quote
CindyC
I got the book yesterday. i skimmed through it last night, the one thing that struck me is how much he seems to hate Jane Rose.

Not having read the book (yet)....I'm guessing that it's because she
was sort of on the frontlines for Keith. This kid (German) was pestering
Keith for interviews 100's of times....and she had to protect keith.
Even though Keith & Bill became buddies on a some level..I'm sure there were
many days when Keith didn't give a sh*t.

now THATS funny how you turn things around to have Keith in a good light....

if BG was "pestering Keith for interviews 100s of times" (I understand it was not for numerous interviews but just ONE) he had to do it because Keith obviously was unreliable and did not keep his promise to do it. in case Keith just didnt give a shit to waste an hour to do an interview he should just have told BG and end of story. why does he need Jane Rose to "protect him"? poor guy.

how was i putting keith in a good light?
Jane Rose is Keith personal assistant/manager...it's her job to deal with
interview requests etc.... i'm sure keith is very unreliable etc... and it would
have been easy to grant an interview but...it wasn't happening.
I was replying to Cindy's statement about BG's opinion about Ms. Rose.
.....giving a possible reason why there might be animosity.

Believe me...I'm the last guy that's gonna defend a snooty "celebrity"
for taking themselves too seriously..breaking promises....or simply being an a-hole.


IORR............but I like it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-26 19:38 by sweet neo con.

The Bill Graham story mentioned above sounds like it came directly from BG's autobiography. It has been a while since I read it, but BG related the same conversation (on an airplane) and the same quote from Mick. As I recall it it was something like "At this point Bill, it's all about the money" or some such statement. Again, as I recall, Graham berated himself and blamed his use of various medications for not thinking creatively enough to be able to match the corporate offer. For example, he had enough contacts to get free hotel rooms (with Hilton, I believe) in exchange for advertising, etc. I think the Stones wanted his expertise around and offered him a personal retainer to be on hand just in case.

I often wonder about the impact on the band of the Allen Klein burn, not financially, but psychologically. Would the band have viewed the world differently if it had reaped the benefits of some of its best years? Would it have effected the music or how it toured? It is one thing to make sound business judgments because it makes sense, but another to do it because you have been totally ripped off of some of your best work. Wyman said in his first book that it '69 the band was broke. That tour was like starting over financially. My guess is that the effect of the Klein contract, implicitly or explicitly, is enormous to this day.

thanks for clearing this, sweet neo con.

Re: Bill Graham and Mick

The way I read it was that Graham promised each band member $16 million for the Steel Wheel tour. Cohl $18 million. Graham asked Jagger what was the difference between $16M and $18M (inferring that loyalty was worth something). Mick replied $2 million dollars. Anybody else heard/read this version?

$2 million.

Yes, that was part of the story as well. Thanks for the reminder. A dry comment indeed.

The Stones have always been about money.
Thats why they went with Klein in the first place.
Their mistake was not reading the small print.
The devil is in the detail.
Macca new better; Lennon and the others didn't.

Quote
alimente

Quote
sweet neo con

Quote
CindyC
I got the book yesterday. i skimmed through it last night, the one thing that struck me is how much he seems to hate Jane Rose.

Not having read the book (yet)....I'm guessing that it's because she
was sort of on the frontlines for Keith. This kid (German) was pestering
Keith for interviews 100's of times....and she had to protect keith.
Even though Keith & Bill became buddies on a some level..I'm sure there were
many days when Keith didn't give a sh*t.

now THATS funny how you turn things around to have Keith in a good light....

if BG was "pestering Keith for interviews 100s of times" (I understand it was not for numerous interviews but just ONE) he had to do it because Keith obviously was unreliable and did not keep his promise to do it. in case Keith just didnt give a shit to waste an hour to do an interview he should just have told BG and end of story. why does he need Jane Rose to "protect him"? poor guy.

Yeah, that's why I said BG has patience and persistence like I've NEVER seen. The never ending requests were for the same interview - one interview for Beggar's Banquet - and Keith ALWAYS took his call - never avoided (at the Plaza Hotel I believe it was - don't have the book next to me at the moment) and said yes to the interview, only to postpone it later cause something always came up. Keith UNRELIABLE?? You bet your ass (but in a very nice way). Bill DID get his interview eventually..... I mean, it all depends how much bullsh*t you wanna go through, how patient you are.... Cindy talked about Jane Rose above... well, it's no mystery why she wasn't loved by those wanting "Keith Time" (yet somehow Keith kept her around so someone liked her as a front line pain-in-the-ass human wall to get past/over) The "celebrity bubble" is one strange place but I suppose some really need it or want it...... with all that said Keith and Ronnie do come off as good guys, Mick runs VERY hot and cold, much more than I thought and he seems to NEED acceptance from the present generation much more than the rest of the band.... if you ever wondered who picked the musical guests for special shows/concerts (from Sheryl Crow to Jack White to Christina Aguilera) think no more.... Mick, please spare us the Jonas Brothers on the next tour, THANKS