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Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: hopkins ()
Date: December 23, 2020 05:13

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
hopkins


Mick Taylor Rocks.

Correct sir. He Rocked. Past tense that is.

Bitch edited version.

Oh My goodness. Somehow I just missed this!!
What a major treat. Wow.
Thank You.

Now looking back I see that fans knew about this but I never did and thanks.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 23, 2020 13:05

Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Carnaby ()
Date: December 24, 2020 03:35

With the headphones, the way the music goes down and the vocals go up during the fade.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: December 24, 2020 04:02

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 24, 2020 18:49

Quote
GasLightStreet
Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

Mick Jagger came up with the Brown Sugar progression and Keith played it?

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 24, 2020 20:30

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
GasLightStreet
Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

Mick Jagger came up with the Brown Sugar progression and Keith played it?

[youtu.be]

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: December 24, 2020 21:04

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.
But at the marquee club show Taylor played the riff before the song was released.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 24, 2020 21:50

Quote
Taylor1
But at the marquee club show Taylor played the riff before the song was released.

You're talking Brown Sugar? Listen to Essen 1970, I believe Brown Sugar was not officially released yet then. I tell you right now: that's the best version I've ever heard. Very powerful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-24 23:26 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: December 24, 2020 22:31

At the Marquee show Taylor is playing the riff and Keith the lead right? I always thought it strange that Taylor played the lead and soloson Happy , TumblingDice Gimme Shelter live even though Keith played them on the albums.Why wouldn’t he therefore also play the solos on Bitch live

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 24, 2020 23:35

Quote
Taylor1
At the Marquee show Taylor is playing the riff and Keith the lead right? I always thought it strange that Taylor played the lead and soloson Happy , TumblingDice Gimme Shelter live even though Keith played them on the albums.Why wouldn’t he therefore also play the solos on Bitch live

?

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: December 25, 2020 00:38

Sticky Fingers session Oct 1970 Mick Jagger and Mick Taylor were playing a loose jam before Keith arrived and then the song took off when Keith Arrived. I have never read that Keith took credit for the riff. Maybe MT came up with the riff

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 25, 2020 01:29

Quote
Taylor1
At the Marquee show Taylor is playing the riff and Keith the lead right? I always thought it strange that Taylor played the lead and soloson Happy , TumblingDice Gimme Shelter live even though Keith played them on the albums.Why wouldn’t he therefore also play the solos on Bitch live

Because Happy and TD were in open G. Keith played the GS-solos in 1969, btw.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: December 25, 2020 02:03

Quote
Taylor1
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.
But at the marquee club show Taylor played the riff before the song was released.

Which means after it was recorded, right?

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: December 25, 2020 02:05

Quote
Taylor1
At the Marquee show Taylor is playing the riff and Keith the lead right? I always thought it strange that Taylor played the lead and soloson Happy , TumblingDice Gimme Shelter live even though Keith played them on the albums.Why wouldn’t he therefore also play the solos on Bitch live

Because Keith was playing rhythm and didn't want to play those solos? There are no rules. For that mindset you wonder, why did Taylor play a solo in SFTD? How weird.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Rip This ()
Date: December 25, 2020 13:47

Best KR solo ever....scathing hot!

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 26, 2020 14:29

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

I know Taylor is credited with playing the main riff, and he plays the main riff on all live versions. But the studio version just sounds like nothing Taylor has ever played in his 40 year career. It's aggressive, ballsy, loud and full of attack, and this is all missing on all live versions, where Taylor plays the riff clean, a bit subdued, following the drums and not pushing them.

To me it sounds like they recorded the song and in the end Keith simply overdubbed the main riff, as he did with Taylor's rhythm playing on the Berry tracks of Ya-Ya's.

BUt, this is just my own opinion.

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: December 26, 2020 14:46

Thinking about the title. It's not pc. Wouldn't have been allowed today. The song is about drug addiction though. Not something else.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: December 26, 2020 15:09

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

I know Taylor is credited with playing the main riff, and he plays the main riff on all live versions. But the studio version just sounds like nothing Taylor has ever played in his 40 year career. It's aggressive, ballsy, loud and full of attack, and this is all missing on all live versions, where Taylor plays the riff clean, a bit subdued, following the drums and not pushing them.

To me it sounds like they recorded the song and in the end Keith simply overdubbed the main riff, as he did with Taylor's rhythm playing on the Berry tracks of Ya-Ya's.

BUt, this is just my own opinion.

Mathijs
Isnt Taylor aggressive,loud ballsy live on songs like Bye Bye Johnny, Ft Worth,1972; Street Fighting Man Brussels1973;Midnight Rambler 1972-1973;Gimme Shelter 1973;I know those are mostly songs he’s playing lead except Bye Bye Johnny.You are the expert here when it comes to the Stones music so I will defer to your opinion



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-26 15:11 by Taylor1.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 26, 2020 15:40

Quote
Taylor1
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs


Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

I know Taylor is credited with playing the main riff, and he plays the main riff on all live versions. But the studio version just sounds like nothing Taylor has ever played in his 40 year career. It's aggressive, ballsy, loud and full of attack, and this is all missing on all live versions, where Taylor plays the riff clean, a bit subdued, following the drums and not pushing them.

To me it sounds like they recorded the song and in the end Keith simply overdubbed the main riff, as he did with Taylor's rhythm playing on the Berry tracks of Ya-Ya's.

BUt, this is just my own opinion.

Mathijs
Isnt Taylor aggressive,loud ballsy live on songs like Bye Bye Johnny, Ft Worth,1972; Street Fighting Man Brussels1973;Midnight Rambler 1972-1973;Gimme Shelter 1973;I know those are mostly songs he’s playing lead except Bye Bye Johnny.You are the expert here when it comes to the Stones music so I will defer to your opinion

Nobody is an expert here in my opinion. There are fans, Überfans, nerds, opinions, philosophers, agreements and disagreements. I agree on your last reply about the Taylor related music though. And let's enjoy the music. thumbs up



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-26 15:46 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: December 26, 2020 17:41

I don’t know how anybody can deny it’s Taylor after listening to the outtake.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: hopkins ()
Date: December 27, 2020 03:22

Soul horns hitting while all that other stuff is going on. Just a total gem.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: December 27, 2020 03:34

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Here we are, 10 years later, and I still do not believe it's actually Taylor on the studio version....

Mathijs

Based on what he said it sounds like Keith figured out the chug, revealed the improvement to the band, and Taylor played it. No different than the Chuck Berry tunes they did in 1969, which the rhythm playing doesn't sound mediocre at all.

That's a reasonable thing to think, anyway, at least based on what Andy Johns said, in which he wasn't specific, and how the song is credited. Just because Keith may've come up with the chug doesn't mean he played it. Brown Sugar is a good example of that.

I know Taylor is credited with playing the main riff, and he plays the main riff on all live versions. But the studio version just sounds like nothing Taylor has ever played in his 40 year career. It's aggressive, ballsy, loud and full of attack, and this is all missing on all live versions, where Taylor plays the riff clean, a bit subdued, following the drums and not pushing them.

To me it sounds like they recorded the song and in the end Keith simply overdubbed the main riff, as he did with Taylor's rhythm playing on the Berry tracks of Ya-Ya's.

BUt, this is just my own opinion.

Mathijs

Out of the "horse meat pie" into the chorus, right about 40 seconds or so in, there's a jank in that rhythm guitar in the right track: nobody else but Keith does that. Also there's a consistent sliding down the strings at the end of the riff that's subtle - another Keithism.

There is in the left channel a guitar that's doing some kind of chunk thing here and there sparingly but it seems to be that lead track, which is clearly Keith.

A case of Taylor playing on the recording but being wiped or left out of the mix.

So, after a bit more revue and focus, Mick Taylor is not on Bitch!

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 27, 2020 04:33

Cheap KR PR stint, my dear "GLS". grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: December 27, 2020 04:38

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Cheap KR PR stint, my dear "GLS". grinning smiley

HA HA! Well, after reading some things and listening closer, it makes sense. Waiting On A Friend comes to mind.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 27, 2020 04:50

Just forget it. cool smiley

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: December 27, 2020 13:41

If Taylor doesn’t play on Bitch on the album, why does the album notes say he is.The album notes say Keith isn’t playing on Sway or Moonlight Mile .The album notes say Taylor is not on Sister Morphine .So why would Taylor be listed on Bitch? You could wipe Brian’s acoustic guitar from Swmpathy for the Devil before it was released or Taylor from Rip this Joint, but on those songs their guitars are just missing. Keith didn’t then afterwards add an acoustic or another guitar and then leave the credits to Brian and Taylor Why would he record all the guitars to Bitch and then someoneerroneously state in the album liner notes Taylor playing on it.Whoever wrote the liner notes for the Sticky Fingers album clearly did not credit Keith playing guitar on Sway and Moonlight Mile.So why would he credit Taylor on Bitch if he wasn’t on that track.Alsso isn’t Taylor’s guitar on the album track Live With Me similar to the guitar on Bitch?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-27 13:44 by Taylor1.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 27, 2020 14:29

Enough examples out there where Taylor has the punch good enough to be the rhythm player on Bitch. (Studio). Enough examples to think it's Keith. On the live version L&G the entire band has fun, laughing at each other. On Philly '72 the music works even better, and that's what it's all about.

Happy Holidays, despite the @#$%& Corona. thumbs up



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-27 14:30 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 27, 2020 15:03

Quote
Taylor1
If Taylor doesn’t play on Bitch on the album, why does the album notes say he is.The album notes say Keith isn’t playing on Sway or Moonlight Mile .The album notes say Taylor is not on Sister Morphine .So why would Taylor be listed on Bitch? You could wipe Brian’s acoustic guitar from Swmpathy for the Devil before it was released or Taylor from Rip this Joint, but on those songs their guitars are just missing. Keith didn’t then afterwards add an acoustic or another guitar and then leave the credits to Brian and Taylor Why would he record all the guitars to Bitch and then someoneerroneously state in the album liner notes Taylor playing on it.Whoever wrote the liner notes for the Sticky Fingers album clearly did not credit Keith playing guitar on Sway and Moonlight Mile.So why would he credit Taylor on Bitch if he wasn’t on that track.Alsso isn’t Taylor’s guitar on the album track Live With Me similar to the guitar on Bitch?

The liner notes also say he's playing on Brown Sugar, which he's not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-27 15:04 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: December 27, 2020 16:30

There are two electric guitars and one acoustic on BrownSugar.You can clearly hear it listening on earphones or removing Jaggers vocalsWhy couldn’t Taylor be one of the electric.Plus on Bitch ,explain why the guitar that people say isn’t Taylor sounds like Taylor on the studio Live With Me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-27 16:33 by Taylor1.

Re: Track Talk: Bitch
Date: December 27, 2020 19:11

Quote
Taylor1
There are two electric guitars and one acoustic on BrownSugar.You can clearly hear it listening on earphones or removing Jaggers vocalsWhy couldn’t Taylor be one of the electric.Plus on Bitch ,explain why the guitar that people say isn’t Taylor sounds like Taylor on the studio Live With Me

Because all the three guitars are Keith. Do you really think that the Berry-licks, the open G or the acoustic is Taylor?

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