Quote
melillo
are you sure of this

dead certain of it.

There will always be issues with ABKCO so that's the problem with 63-70.

The 69 shows filmed by the Maysles would require restoration and synching, possibly expensive.

CD sales are shrinking so it would have to go to download and reduced revenues.

The Beatles Anthologys, originally there was going to be a single sessions LP in the 80s of all the quality material. Some of their outtakes are fakes made from putting various takes together.

As an aside there were recently 2 6CD sets of Jimi Hendrix live in the US and a massive 22CD set of outtakes.

Does anybody has a clue about the sales of collector boxes like the 4CD Springsteen box, the Hendrix material, the Dylan bootleg series etc?
I think it is a great service for the hard core fans and can't understand the Stones don't pay any serious attention to us.

The Hendrix boxes are limited to 1000, recent CD issues to 1500. But these are not sanctioned by the family and the courts quickly shut them down.

The Stones have never been big sellers which is part of their longevity. Not massive sellers and then nothing and the public loose interest.

Of course they would sell...
Perhaps they need to see what Queen has done on their website, selling all the bootlegs that were released prior to Mercury dying.

They could do it via their website (would make it useful!)...and also release via vinyl and CD with full art. Would be fabulous. I am sure they eventually will, probably when they finally pack it in and want some more press.

There would certainly be an interest but mostly for the older stuff. There are some excellent finished tracks like the ones from Chess and Olympic. To have a Still a fool in excellent quality! Imagine that! For the later stuff, no! Just look at the stuff from Paris in the late 70´s. Some good tunes but mostly un finished. The ones that comes to mind are Drift away (73) and Precious love and maybe a couple of others. For the concerts I really would like the ones fron 72, 73 and 75 in re-mastered quality. Would all of this sell? No, I don´t think so. We die hard fans would of course get it but how many of us are there really??

The thing is that it's probably a little late in the game to create massive sales. Anyway, we will have the Universal remasters soon and we will see if they're just the ordinary albums again or expanded editions with unreleased studio or live stuff.

If they start do dig up material for expanded editions, they might as well come up with some separate "Bootleg Series"-type releases of full shows.

If any of this happens I am pretty sure that ABKCO will follow with expanded releases too. It's not like ABKCO is holding things back to annoy us fans - it has more to do with the fact that even ABKCO is in no legal position to put out previously unreleased material without permission from the Stones. And what have the Stones done with unreased material which they actually control - anything from 1971 and onwards? Nothing so far!

Quote
kees
Does anybody has a clue about the sales of collector boxes like the 4CD Springsteen box, the Hendrix material, the Dylan bootleg series etc?
I think it is a great service for the hard core fans and can't understand the Stones don't pay any serious attention to us.

Springsteen's "Tracks" 4-CD set has sold 1 million copies, as has the 1-Cd "18 Tracks" version of it

Pearl Jam sold 3,5 million copies of their Bootleg series (around 200 titles), so Mick must find out that they can earn some money.

Quote
kees
Does anybody has a clue about the sales of collector boxes like the 4CD Springsteen box, the Hendrix material, the Dylan bootleg series etc?
I think it is a great service for the hard core fans and can't understand the Stones don't pay any serious attention to us.

Springsteen's "Tracks" 4-CD set has sold 1 million copies, as has the 1-Cd "18 Tracks" version of it.


The following info is posted on GreasyLake springsteen site by Earthslayer, and shows US sales of multi disc releases. Of course, its worth stating that many of these releases are greatest hits compilations and not outtakes, etc

USA - ALL TIME BEST SELLING MULTI-DISC LP/CD ALBUMS (3 OR MORE DISCS) thru July 2008.

Sourced from RIAA and Nielsen Soundscan data.

this info just goes to show how difficult it is to sell a lot of copies of increasingly big disc packages. I've listed the top sellers in each size category.


3 CD (4/5LP) SETS.......TITLE.......................RETAIL SOLD

Bruce Springsteen...Live 1975-85........................4,400,000
Led Zeppelin............How The West Was Won........815,000
Led Zeppelin............Remasters...............................775,000
Eightball...................Lost.........................................700,000
Nirvana....................With The Light Out...................655,000
Prince.......................Emancipation...........................650,000
Prince.......................Hits and B-Sides.......................645,000
Elvis Presley.............Story........................................575,000
Chicago....................Live at Carnegie Hall................550,000
Queen......................Platinum Collection...................500,000
Aerosmith.................Pandora's Box..........................450,000
Bob Dylan.................Biograph...................................390,000
Bob Dylan.................Bootleg Series Vol 1-3..............275,000


4 CD SETS.....................TITLE.........................RETAIL SOLD

Led Zeppelin............Led Zeppelin..........................2,800,000
George Strait...........Out of the Box........................1,500,000
Jimmy Buffet.............Boats, Beaches.........................800,000
Eric Clapton..............Crossroads...............................750,000
Bob Marley...............Songs of Freedom.....................680,000
Rod Stewart.............Storyteller.................................500,000
Barbara Streisand.....For The Record.........................460,000
The Police..................Message in a Bottle Box..........365,000
The Eagles................Collected Works.......................350,000
Bruce Springsteen.....Tracks......................................320,000


5 CD SETS.....................TITLE.........................RETAIL SOLD

Garth Brooks.............Limited Series #2...................1,600,000
Elvis Presley..............50's Masters..............................420,000
Smashing Pumpkins...Aeroplane Flies.........................330,000
AC/DC........................Bonfire.......................................260,000
Elvis Presley...............60's Masters.............................225,000
Ken Burns..................Jazz...........................................210,000
Johnny Cash..............Legend......................................200,000
Kiss............................Kiss Box.....................................165,000
Beach Boys................30 Years Of..................,.............140,000
Grateful Dead............So Many Roads...........................130,000


6 CD or MORE SETS......TITLE..........................RETAIL SOLD

Garth Brooks.............Limited Series #1.....................1,800,000...6 cds
Led Zeppelin.............Complete.....................................285,000..10 cds
Pink Floyd..................Shine On.....................................260,000...9 cds
Tom Petty..................Playback......................................180,000..6 cds
The Beatles...............Complete.......................................75,000..16 cds
Phish Hampton..........Comes Alive...................................70,000...6 cds
Aerosmith...................Box On Fire...................................65,000..13 cds
Grateful Dead.............Golden Road.................................60,000...12 cds
Various Artists............Complete Stax/Volt Singles..........58,000...9 cds
Richard Pryor..............Complete......................................55,000...9 cds



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-13 15:17 by Gazza.

Maybe they'll not sell enough but, if we look other way, is this a good reason not to issue a serie of live perfomances or a compilation of outtakes?
I mean, what is the cost involved?
And they even could do it just for using the money collected for some charity purpose or for the almost retired stones fans like me.

Absolutely are you kidding me?? if they released brussels 73 or the 72 gig at Madison Square Garden absolutely it would sell! with the right promotion it would do very well..

the issue is they don't want the inevitable comparisons..

Quote
retired_dog

It's not like ABKCO is holding things back to annoy us fans - it has more to do with the fact that even ABKCO is in no legal position to put out previously unreleased material without permission from the Stones. And what have the Stones done with unreased material which they actually control - anything from 1971 and onwards? Nothing so far!

This is interesting. Of course its not like ABKCO to do ANYTHING that doesnt benefit ABKCO(IMO) but about the unreleased material ABKCO has, you mean The Stones approved of the "METAMORPHASIS" release?? I'm not saying they didnt-its just in 1975(when this was released) the wounds were still fresh, werent they?

Quote
scottkeef
This is interesting. Of course its not like ABKCO to do ANYTHING that doesnt benefit ABKCO(IMO) but about the unreleased material ABKCO has, you mean The Stones approved of the "METAMORPHASIS" release?? I'm not saying they didnt-its just in 1975(when this was released) the wounds were still fresh, werent they?

Metamorphosis was part of a legal settlement between the Stones and ABKCO in the seventies. Apart from other projects involving already released material, ABKCO was granted the rights for one album with previously unreleased material. Bill Wyman went through the archives back then and came up with a compilation the Stones could live with (project BLACK BOX), but ABKCO did not use Wyman's choice of material because it included too many non-Jagger-Richards compositions. As ABKCO also makes money from publishing rights, they chose to include as many Jagger-Richards compositions as possible, which is why those "pop" demos like Sleepy City, Try A Little Harder and the like were released on Metamorphosis and other stuff like Cops % Robbers, Little Red Rooster (live) from Wyman's choice dropped.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-13 18:16 by retired_dog.

Thanks for the info. I wasnt aware of that.

.....sales figures of Forty Licks would suggest that there is a market for their compilations when done right.... Furthermore, their new deal with Universal....might suggest a willingness to do a better job of promotion...seriously lacking with EMI

40 Licks was unique because it was the first compilation that spanned their entire career (ie both the pre and post 1970 catalogue). It was always going to be a surefire success.

forty licks was also marketed in an unusual way, at least for the stones. there was an 800 number to call to send away for it (I don't know if that was the only way you could do it at first) and then when you were on the phone with the operator they told you about the Remastered ABKO releases that came out at the same time that you could get in addition. And it came with a poster.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-13 23:34 by ryanpow.

Obviously a US only move then (first I've heard of the phone offer). I dont think it was available by phone before it was in the shops (30.9.02)

I think there is not mentioned yet that The Stones have already released one a sort of 'bootleg series' item: ROCK AND ROLL CIRCUS (CD & video). Even though it has some other huge names to support it - especially John Lennon - it didn't sell particularly well, if I remember right. (I don't have figures, so please if anyone could inform more of those). To put the thing in perspective - back in the 80's the idea of seeing or hearing this LEGENDARY show 'officially' (or, in my case, in any way) was total science fiction.

I wonder if the experiences with R&RC has something to do with Jagger's interest of digging the vaults and releasing them?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-14 00:32 by Doxa.

Quote
Doxa
I wonder if the experiences with R&RC has something to do with Jagger's interest of digging the vaults and releasing them?

- Doxa

That's one aspect, definitely. Unreleased stuff is definitely not on Jagger's top priority list. From a (very) inside source I know that their attitude is kinda like "whoever wants to listen to old live tapes, there's enough stuff out on bootlegs or in tape trading circles". It's not that the Stones actively encourage bootlegging, it's more a realistic point of view that a whole lot of quality stuff is out there and whoever is keen to listen to it can find his or her way to discover it.

In the past, they were not ready to do something simply for the sake of artistic value. And Virgin was definitely not the company who encouraged them to think outside of terms like "new albums" or "greatest hits compilations".

Such a release would be the best thing to happen in a long long time. " I am waiting " and have been waiting for years for something like that. A series even much like Bob Dylan's would be pure bliss. I have many bootlegs of varying quality and just want this stuff to be released officially. Rarities was a huge let down with the exception of TTLN track. Where was I Think I'm Going Mad ?? Cmon already ! Start releasing best shows from all the decades. And a definitive DVD Anthology that includes every single promo clip and video they ever made. Gettin tired of waiting for such a package. Stones are way overdue for this.

I suppose this is really part of the Vaults debate, which has been aired many times in the past, I'll add my pennys worth though.
At the time of their respective releases I purchased both the Beatles Anthology set and also the John Lennon triple CD.Neither get played by me now. I don't regret the purchase but it confirmed in my own mind that when JL said he would like to re-record the Beatles material again-"and make a better job" (1980), it was pure fantasy. The official releases were without much exception, the best.What they did offer though were some gems, eg John's first acoustic demo of Strawberry Fields, the Let It be tracks before Spector got his dirty mits on them, as examples.
Of course, the Beatles set came out some 25 years after the groups demise. One of the reasons for its release was George's finacial woes at the time, ironic how the Beatles product bailed him out after he often gave such negative views about the whole Beatle experience.
Mick's view has always been that the Stones are a "living" band, so why go to the vaults, leave that to the excutors of the Presley estate, etc.
A "problem" (which I'm quite sure doesn't stress Mick) is that by the time the Stones "retire" there may be litle interest in any unreleased material, over and above die hard fans. Mick's ego, being what it is, might not like a set released which then dies without trace.
I also get the impression that, unlike say, Dylan and Young,(and in different ways, Hendrix and Miles Davis) most of what they have put out-recording wise is ALL they've got - they are not prolific writers with scores of unreleased "gems "around.Also, it was interesting that the much hyped r and r standards which the Beatles allegedly recorded at the time of their Get Back sessions were mostly lacking from the Anthology set. So even allowing for a lower quality control criteria, the recordings were not demed good enough.

This doesn't imply I would be personally against a raid on the vaults, but I can understand Mick's position. Would you expect writers to release first drafts (or rejected) work, for example?
And Mick doesn't look back - partly his reason for not going down the autobiography route. Neither did Sinatra. Macca sems to have no plans either.
I would be intrigued to hear some Little Boy Blue tapes - but the results could be awful.Do we really want more live material- there is enough out there surely.
I have read (from someone in the know) that ABKCO doesn't have much in the way of decent unreleased material either- and for most people this would be the most interesting period.
And judging from many contributors to this site, the Stones haven't exactly produced many gems in the last 20 years, so what would rejected tracks be like?

I would rather any trawling of the vaults were concentrated on promotional videos and film footage, either previously released (but rarely seen and/or unavailable), never released eg CS Blues, and also from the groups own personal archives.
I'm not holding my breath, however.

Quote
out of my head
Such a release would be the best thing to happen in a long long time. " I am waiting " and have been waiting for years for something like that. A series even much like Bob Dylan's would be pure bliss. I have many bootlegs of varying quality and just want this stuff to be released officially. Rarities was a huge let down with the exception of TTLN track. Where was I Think I'm Going Mad ?? Cmon already ! Start releasing best shows from all the decades. And a definitive DVD Anthology that includes every single promo clip and video they ever made. Gettin tired of waiting for such a package. Stones are way overdue for this.

Dylan's career was at it's lowest ebb when the Bootleg Series releases started in 1991. The shot in the arm it gave his career was huge and since the subsequent releases began in 1998 with the first of the archive "live" albums, his record sales have improved, critical reappraisal of his legacy has increased and his ticket sales have done pretty well considering the fact that he tours so often. The new material he's produced since 1997 has been the best sustained body of work he's done since the mid 70's (whether thats coincidental, I dont know). He obviously had no qualms about releasing vintage era concerts and having them compared to his current performances.

Anyone - Jagger especially - who doesnt see that such a move would be good for the Stones on so many levels needs their head examined.

>This doesn't imply I would be personally against a raid on the vaults, but I can understand Mick's position. Would you expect writers to release first drafts (or rejected) work, for example?

They dont have to be early demos. An alternate take of 'Brown sugar' for example (eg the version with Clapton) is still a fine version of a great song.


>And Mick doesn't look back - partly his reason for not going down the autobiography route.

then why did he sign a multi-million pound advance to do just that? he didnt go through with it because he couldnt remember any details and (probably) because he's too private a person to go into the intimate detail about his private life that a publisher would want for that kind of money.

The 'dont look back' ethos is also totally at odds with his attitude in this decade towards his musical output and choice of live material to sing.

Incidentally, when it comes to trawling through the archives, Jagger doesnt have to have anything to do with it. Dylan doesnt oversee HIS Bootleg Series - he has people to do that for him. It seems to have worked OK. If Mick doesnt want to do it, he could entrust it to others and then of course the band could just have the final word on what would be released. They obviously didnt listen to Live Licks before its release and had nothing to do with Rarities so it couldnt get any worse.

Would bootleg series sell?
Is the Pope a Catholic?

Quote
Rip This
..... Furthermore, their new deal with Universal....might suggest a willingness to do a better job of promotion...

I for one know that Universal is focused on that...

[www.paulinestroosnijder.com]

Yes it will sell, but only to real die hard fans.

__________________________

Bob Dylan's career wasn't really affected by the Bootleg Series. The first one did ok in 1991 but Dylan was drinking heavily and many of his shows were terrible (Stuttgart 91 is generally considered the worst). Dylan's career turned around because expectations got so low and then he exceeded the expectations. He also benefitted hugely from the death of Jerry Garcia in 1995 as he picked up a lot of the Deadheads. Dylan has nothing to do with his bootlege series, it is his management that handles it. The only input he ever had is he said they could not include the unreleased "Yonder Comes Sin" on the first package (a song built around the "Jumpin' Jack Flash" riff). Dylan fans have always craved the unreleased stuff - the first Bootleg Series was really issued in 1975 with the Basement Tapes album. Also Dylan's audience makeup is different from the Stones - he relies more heavily on repeat customers than the Stones do but of course, the Stones' audience is much larger.

Quote
stewedandkeefed
Bob Dylan's career wasn't really affected by the Bootleg Series. The first one did ok in 1991 but Dylan was drinking heavily and many of his shows were terrible (Stuttgart 91 is generally considered the worst).

the first one actually sold very well - see the list I published above - and did better than his studio albums were doing around that period. It revived critical and commercial interest in the work from his peak period. By the time the second one came out in 1998, his career was on the upswing again - it accelerated it.

Quote
stewedandkeefed
Dylan's career turned around because expectations got so low and then he exceeded the expectations.

Nonsense. Obviously rediscovering his muse and releasing three multi-platinum Grammy award winning albums had nothing to do with it?

Quote
stewedandkeefed
He also benefitted hugely from the death of Jerry Garcia in 1995 as he picked up a lot of the Deadheads.

The Dead arent that big outside of the US, so to suggest that Dylan relied on their fanbase to bolster his own dwindling one is fanciful to put it kindly. There's no more musical common ground between Dead and Dylan fans than there is with anyone else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-15 18:38 by Gazza.